Moose chooses D800-E

Started Feb 7, 2012 | Discussions
ebuddha
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Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to BeachnCruz, Feb 17, 2012

actually, i would love it for moose to demonstrate anything for me - that's why i attended his workshop. unfortunately, despite his statements in the classroom that we should follow him around in the field and ask lots of questions, he could not have come across more distant/arrogant.

i don't want to stray from the original topic, but you seemed interested in defending him - not sure if you've ever met him. his work speaks for itself - you may like it, you may not - but the man is not someone who's advice i would ever take on any subject because IMO he doesn't care about anyone but moose.

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MaxTux
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feather detail?
In reply to gnagel, Feb 17, 2012

gnagel wrote:

I asked him if he was concerned about the moire issue--particularly given his interest in wildlife photography (and feather detail).

The simple fact is that there is no real possibility of moire on an image of a natural (as opposed to a "man-made") object. Yes, feathers, fur, waves, snow, sand, some rock surface, and on and on can all have some "regular pattern" by the popular definition of a "regular pattern", but none of those can have a pattern that will be, over a visibly noticeable area on the image plane, aligned very, very closely but not perfectly, with the pattern of the image sensing elements. And that is what is required for the moire phenomenon to appear.

I predict that the welcome arrival of two cameras with the only difference of the presence or absence of moire-fighting, resolution-impeding device will result in general recognition that moire is a much overestimated problem, but also in the the wider acceptance of photographs with some residual moire effect. It may well be that many of those that will opt for the "E" version will never rally print an image at the size where that last milligram of resolution will make a difference, but it is also very likely that even more of those that get the "conventional" model will never photograph an object that wold result in a photograph that must be post-processed or rejected because of moire. The manufacturer of the two models has apparently mis-estimated the initial demand for the "E" version. It will be interesting to see if the ratio of the two models' sold units changes back to what Nikon's original estimate was after the two have been in use for a year or so.

I predict that it will not.

MaxTux

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rhlpetrus
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How about waiting a bit? Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to MrSkelter, Feb 17, 2012

We haven't really seen any test of the advantage/or not of removing the AA effect in the D800E compared to the D800, or about the moiré producing inclinations of D800E.

Maybe the detail is not that better, maybe the moiré is not that much owrse, and so on. I'll wait for that before deciding. I like the extra detail, if it's there and if the moiré is not too pervasive. I PP each of my images.

MrSkelter wrote:

calson wrote:

Anyone who shoots RAW will want the 800E - no surprise here.

Not true.

The D800E suits:

1. People who don't shoot moire-prone stuff (i.e. Landscape guys who don't encounter fabric or other manmade repeating grids).
2. People with the time to post-process moire away.
3. People with a need for the last ounce of resolution.

Once you downsize your output the AA filter becomes irrelevant. We're still at too low a resolution with 36MP to make moire without an AA filter a thing of the past.

If you want to shoot without worry, and can't devote hours to post production, an AA filter is your friend.

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calson
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Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to gnagel, Feb 18, 2012

Of course he did. He earns a significant amount of income with his gallery nature prints where maximum image quality is very important and the chance for Moire is extremely small.

Forget about which pro photographer buys what and look at the kinds of pictures that they sell. With wedding photographers the D800 will be preferred if they choose to use the D800 at all. For the most part 36MP sensor files are going to be a huge pain for many pro photographers and I would not be surprised if many start to use the DX mode to get to a more manageable file size.

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sfnikon
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Chambers chose E and so did KR
In reply to gnagel, Feb 18, 2012

Ok ok the latter might argue against going with the E
It's no surprise the pixel peeping guru chambers when with the E.

I have the AA filterless (or at least very weak) X100 and havent noticed moire once. I figured if I get the E I will regret it once in awhile when moire shows up occasionally. BUT if I get the D800 I'll know (however irrelevant when printed) that every shot will be a bit short of what the sensor is truly capable of.

I think printing is becoming less and less relevant anyhow. In 20 years when I'm looking at the images on a 34,560i wall sized monitor I'll be sorry I didn't get the 'E'!!
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gnagel
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Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to ebuddha, Feb 21, 2012

Eric,

Thanks for the kind words. Sorry I didn't respond sooner, but I haven't revisited this thread for a while.

I did see that comment by Thom Hogan. I've given this a lot of thought, and I'm leaning towards the D800 over the D800E at this point. I'm sure both cameras are fantastic, but I tend to shoot a wide variety of subjects--and I don't want to be concerned about moire or other artifacts.

I remember that you didn't have the highest opinion of Moose. As I recall, you cancelled all those other workshops that you would have attended of his.

Glenn

ebuddha wrote:

Hey Glenn - it's been a few months - your site keeps getting better with its expanding photo set!

I'm keeing my D3x for now and waiting to see user's feedback on the D800.

As far Moose's comments, you know (given we were both at his Michigan workshop) that I think he's the biggest idiot out there and that 100% of his comments are snake-oil b.s.

Thom Hogan, who I think is a straight-shooter had the following to say (on his site today) - which I think makes a lot more sense and is far more practical:

"My personal advice: unless you're primarily shooting something you know shouldn't be a big issue--basically landscapes--you shouldn't go this route. Shooting in and around cities and shooting people that aren't nude makes you susceptible to moire. Moreover, you're not likely to see it at capture time: you'd need to be constantly zooming the playback on the LCD to see it, and 36mp is a pretty big mess of pixels to try to examine closely on the 3.2" LCD. Simply put: removing moire is way harder than adding perceived acuity through sharpening. Way."

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PhotoTechBlog
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Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to gnagel, Feb 21, 2012

There seems to be a running theme among many comments that because the D800E was released, the D800 shots must be 'worse'. What do you think shots from the D4 will look like? What about shots already taken with a D3x, D3s, etc.? The shots look amazing, and will be just as amazing with the D800 if not better. The D800E may add a level of detail that many will not be able to realize (lens limitation, technique limitation, subject matter), for most the D800 is clearly the better choice.

Mike

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Lihkin
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Agree
In reply to PhotoTechBlog, Feb 21, 2012

I think a lot of people are wanting that slight sharpness that the D800E will give them. But that does not mean that the D800 is a slouch. It will be an amazing camera and probably better suited for most photographers (self included).

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thebloke
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Re: Agree
In reply to Lihkin, Feb 21, 2012

nikonboi wrote:

I think a lot of people are wanting that slight sharpness that the D800E will give them. But that does not mean that the D800 is a slouch. It will be an amazing camera and probably better suited for most photographers (self included).

Agree, both cameras will be amazing and I'm thankful Nikon is providing us with the "E" option. It seems most people are worried they might miss out on something by making the wrong choice, but I wonder if this would be such an issue if the 800/800E pricing was reversed?

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