Moose chooses D800-E

Started Feb 7, 2012 | Discussions
gnagel
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Moose chooses D800-E
Feb 7, 2012
Nikon D800
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calson
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Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to gnagel, Feb 7, 2012

Anyone who shoots RAW will want the 800E - no surprise here.

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gnagel
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Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to calson, Feb 7, 2012

I asked him if he was concerned about the moire issue--particularly given his interest in wildlife photography (and feather detail). He replied that it was not a concern of his...and if it appears in any images it will be easy to remove with software.

I think I'll go with the D800E as well. I practically shoot every photo from a tripod with good lenses, so sharpness should not be a problem.

Glenn

calson wrote:

Anyone who shoots RAW will want the 800E - no surprise here.

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thomas2279f
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Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to gnagel, Feb 7, 2012

Another good thing I thought of would be with a Nikon 300 F/4 AFS and the TC 2.0 we should be able to AF with this combo and reach (600 F/8) - may need to up the Iso and definitely need a tripod to get stable results but for the price of £1350.00 cannot be beaten (approx £995.00 for lens, £350 for TC)

Looking forward in using the D800 with a 2.0 TC & 200-400 to get AF and be interesting in hearing results from punters using these 2 setups with D800/D4...

Hope we see a revamp to the 300 F4 AFS to VR Mk 2 but not looking forward 2 price; example Canon 24-70 L IS MK 1 £995 new mk 2 version £2295 (> 50% increase!!)

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chuck1260
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Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to thomas2279f, Feb 8, 2012

I am wondering what 200% crop images will look like. They are just too soft on the D700, just not enough pixels.
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ebuddha
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Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to gnagel, Feb 15, 2012

Hey Glenn - it's been a few months - your site keeps getting better with its expanding photo set!

I'm keeing my D3x for now and waiting to see user's feedback on the D800.

As far Moose's comments, you know (given we were both at his Michigan workshop) that I think he's the biggest idiot out there and that 100% of his comments are snake-oil b.s.

Thom Hogan, who I think is a straight-shooter had the following to say (on his site today) - which I think makes a lot more sense and is far more practical:

"My personal advice: unless you're primarily shooting something you know shouldn't be a big issue--basically landscapes--you shouldn't go this route. Shooting in and around cities and shooting people that aren't nude makes you susceptible to moire. Moreover, you're not likely to see it at capture time: you'd need to be constantly zooming the playback on the LCD to see it, and 36mp is a pretty big mess of pixels to try to examine closely on the 3.2" LCD. Simply put: removing moire is way harder than adding perceived acuity through sharpening. Way."

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MrSkelter
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Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to calson, Feb 15, 2012

calson wrote:

Anyone who shoots RAW will want the 800E - no surprise here.

Not true.

The D800E suits:

1. People who don't shoot moire-prone stuff (i.e. Landscape guys who don't encounter fabric or other manmade repeating grids).
2. People with the time to post-process moire away.
3. People with a need for the last ounce of resolution.

Once you downsize your output the AA filter becomes irrelevant. We're still at too low a resolution with 36MP to make moire without an AA filter a thing of the past.

If you want to shoot without worry, and can't devote hours to post production, an AA filter is your friend.

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Cenk
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Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to thomas2279f, Feb 15, 2012

I have 300 f/4 +1.7EII & don't expect too much from this combo... Bare lens much much better...

thomas2279f wrote:

Another good thing I thought of would be with a Nikon 300 F/4 AFS and the TC 2.0 we should be able to AF with this combo and reach (600 F/8)

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harveysteeves
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Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to MrSkelter, Feb 15, 2012

And given that Moose doesn't like PP more than 2 minutes a shot ... And I'm kinda wondering what birds with tight feather patterns will look like. He is also a RAW+JPEG shooter. I think the 800e might just come up and bite him in the posterior. Pretty well every poster here who seems to actually have some working knowledge of moire seems to indicate that you can't fix it only sort of cover it up. Mind you, I have a 645d and I haven't noticed moire yet but then again, I never look too close just in case I get a surprise.

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MrSkelter
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Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to harveysteeves, Feb 15, 2012

The Leica guys hide the color moire by editing to black and white. I doubt D800 owners will be as keen.

The D800E is great. I just think given recent excitement people aren't buying it in the full knowledge of its limitations. Moose is an exception. I'd expect him to have another body should moire present any risk at all.

If moire could be killed in software we'd have seen pro bodies without filters at lower pixel counts when resolution was in more demand. We didn't because you can't.

In a couple of generations it'll be a non-issue. 100MP sensors will have line frequencies which limit moire to very rare circumstances indeed. AA filter or not no one sane will care anyway with that much data to play with.

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alabaster
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Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to ebuddha, Feb 16, 2012

ebuddha wrote:

As far Moose's comments, you know (given we were both at his Michigan workshop) that I think he's the biggest idiot out there and that 100% of his comments are snake-oil b.s.

That's always been my suspicion with Moose. You may be overstating it with the 'biggest idiot' description though, since he is s very successful business man.

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BeachnCruz
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Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to ebuddha, Feb 16, 2012

ebuddha wrote:

As far Moose's comments, you know (given we were both at his Michigan workshop) that I think he's the biggest idiot out there and that 100% of his comments are snake-oil b.s.>

I don't sense much of the buddha spirit emanating from your outrageous insults.

Maybe Moose could demonstrate a valuable lesson with you on how to use a 200-400mm where the sun doesn't shine....

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Kaj E
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Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to gnagel, Feb 16, 2012

No brainer for a nature shooter.
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Kaj E
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And Scott Kelby (who knows PP) the D800 (nt)
In reply to gnagel, Feb 16, 2012
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It's about time we started to take photography seriously and treat it as a hobby.- Elliott Erwitt

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Andre De Angelis
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Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to MrSkelter, Feb 16, 2012

MrSkelter wrote:

If moire could be killed in software we'd have seen pro bodies without filters at lower pixel counts when resolution was in more demand. We didn't because you can't.

Actually you can.

Apart from numerous Photoshop techniques, Capture One has moire removal, and combined with layer brushes, allows it to be applied selectively quite easily. I've used it to great effect a few times.

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Cytokine
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Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to ebuddha, Feb 16, 2012

ebuddha wrote:

Thom Hogan, who I think is a straight-shooter had the following to say (on his site today) - which I think makes a lot more sense and is far more practical:

"My personal advice: unless you're primarily shooting something you know shouldn't be a big issue--basically landscapes--you shouldn't go this route. Shooting in and around cities and shooting people that aren't nude makes you susceptible to moire. Moreover, you're not likely to see it at capture time: you'd need to be constantly zooming the playback on the LCD to see it, and 36mp is a pretty big mess of pixels to try to examine closely on the 3.2" LCD. Simply put: removing moire is way harder than adding perceived acuity through sharpening. Way."

I also agree with Thom as this article from Wikipedia shows moire is very unpredictable and it also depends on how you view and print the image.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moir%C3%A9_pattern

I have seen moire only once, with a normal D200 on this hat, which on my WUXGA laptop shows moire when zoomed out at 75%, no problem for printing but it made me waste time checking.

John

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thomas2279f
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Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to Cenk, Feb 16, 2012

True but the newer Tc 2.0 may improve quality bit - plus holdable solution and can be stop guy for the photograph to save up for a more expensive and better Super telephoto lens like the 500 F4, 600 F4.

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djsphynx
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Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to ebuddha, Feb 16, 2012

Couldn't agree more with Thom.

ebuddha wrote:

Hey Glenn - it's been a few months - your site keeps getting better with its expanding photo set!

I'm keeing my D3x for now and waiting to see user's feedback on the D800.

As far Moose's comments, you know (given we were both at his Michigan workshop) that I think he's the biggest idiot out there and that 100% of his comments are snake-oil b.s.

Thom Hogan, who I think is a straight-shooter had the following to say (on his site today) - which I think makes a lot more sense and is far more practical:

"My personal advice: unless you're primarily shooting something you know shouldn't be a big issue--basically landscapes--you shouldn't go this route. Shooting in and around cities and shooting people that aren't nude makes you susceptible to moire. Moreover, you're not likely to see it at capture time: you'd need to be constantly zooming the playback on the LCD to see it, and 36mp is a pretty big mess of pixels to try to examine closely on the 3.2" LCD. Simply put: removing moire is way harder than adding perceived acuity through sharpening. Way."

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MrSkelter
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Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to Andre De Angelis, Feb 16, 2012

Andre De Angelis wrote:

MrSkelter wrote:

If moire could be killed in software we'd have seen pro bodies without filters at lower pixel counts when resolution was in more demand. We didn't because you can't.

Actually you can.

Apart from numerous Photoshop techniques, Capture One has moire removal, and combined with layer brushes, allows it to be applied selectively quite easily. I've used it to great effect a few times.

To clarify - if you blur things enough you can eliminate any flaw by covering it with another.

I guess I meant to say that the work needed to remove moire after the fact (digitally, not optically), in many cases leaves worse artifacts than the moire you started with.

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bob elkind
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Re: Moose chooses D800-E
In reply to Andre De Angelis, Feb 16, 2012

Andre De Angelis wrote:

MrSkelter wrote:

If moire could be killed in software we'd have seen pro bodies without filters at lower pixel counts when resolution was in more demand. We didn't because you can't.

Actually you can.

Apart from numerous Photoshop techniques, Capture One has moire removal, and combined with layer brushes, allows it to be applied selectively quite easily. I've used it to great effect a few times.

Yes you can, to the extent that you can filter and remove noise in Photoshop.

  • Most of the time you remove most noise, but not all noise

  • Much of the time, detail is removed along with the noise

In short, moire filters exist just as noise filters exist, and neither type of filter has been perfected. All else being equal, the ideal approach is to avoid both noise and moire (or aliasing) in the first place, and avoid the need to use a filter.
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