re: the 'Silly pyramid'

Started Feb 5, 2012 | Discussions
rubydoomsday
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re: the 'Silly pyramid'
Feb 5, 2012

Everyone calling the un-necessary pentaprism hump a 'silly pyramid' - guess what:

This camera isn't for you, and no-one can/will force you to buy it. Rest easy.

The pentaprism hump was a part of the design of portable (35mm film) SLR type cameras for much longer than it's been absent (digital age). While the EM-5 may not be an SLR, it's designed to appeal to that level of user.

If you want a PEN, buy a PEN. I want weather-sealing. Pentaprism matters not to me, but I have to have a built in VF and - despite being a happy and comfortablre rangefinder shooter for over a decade, with XAs, Oly RCs, Leicas and more - I prefer the VF in the centre of the cam. Many, many, many users of this established design/handling aspect of the old SLRs do.

So maybe suck it up and stop whinging? This camera isn't for you. Buy an E-P3 and be a slave to the weather.

Maybe try seeing a potential advantage - potential thieves might mistake it for a 'worthless' 'old' film camera and leave you alone while stalking someone with a Sony NEX?

PS. the hot-shoe being elevated for a proper flash (built-in flashes suck except as wireless triggers, mostly) moves it vertically further from the exposure plane, reducing the likelihood/severity of red-eye.

So that 'silly pyramid you bemoan actually offers some advantages.

I actually want my camera to look like a camera , want the handling experience to be as close to my muscle memory of 15 years of film SLR use as possible - because it's confidence, comfort - almost to the point of their absence - with the tools that make creative expression flow most smoothly.

Even with all the design concessions, until I know whether or not I can adjust the metering/spot memory with the cam to my eye, this new digital from Oly will still be an ergonomic second to the old OM4Ti.

But it's as close as I can get, so I'll take it.

rant

Olympus PEN E-P3
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dotborg
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re: the 'Silly pyramid'
In reply to rubydoomsday, Feb 5, 2012

rubydoomsday wrote:

So maybe suck it up and stop whinging?

What is "whinging"? Is that when you get the buffalo sauce in your eyes?

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Midnighter
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re: the 'Silly pyramid'
In reply to rubydoomsday, Feb 5, 2012

I guess the purpose of the design is to help motivate four thirds users to move to the m4/3 form factor.

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rubydoomsday
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re: the 'Silly pyramid'
In reply to dotborg, Feb 5, 2012

whinge (hw nj, w nj). intr.v. whinged, whing·ing , whing·es Chiefly British. To complain or protest, especially in an annoying or persistent manner.

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dotborg
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re: the 'Silly pyramid'
In reply to rubydoomsday, Feb 5, 2012

rubydoomsday wrote:

whinge (hw nj, w nj). intr.v. whinged, whing·ing , whing·es Chiefly British. To complain or protest, especially in an annoying or persistent manner.

Ah, it sounded like you were trying to combine wing and whine.

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Louis_Dobson
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re: the 'Silly pyramid'
In reply to rubydoomsday, Feb 5, 2012

Well, I like it. But I haven't seen a lot of people whinging about the pyramid...

There's an advantage to the PEN and removable VF, you cant take the VF off and stick the pair in your pocket.

Still, my solution to that is to pair it with the E-PM1, Now that is pocketable! And they share lenses...

rubydoomsday wrote:

Everyone calling the un-necessary pentaprism hump a 'silly pyramid' - guess what:

This camera isn't for you, and no-one can/will force you to buy it. Rest easy.

The pentaprism hump was a part of the design of portable (35mm film) SLR type cameras for much longer than it's been absent (digital age). While the EM-5 may not be an SLR, it's designed to appeal to that level of user.

If you want a PEN, buy a PEN. I want weather-sealing. Pentaprism matters not to me, but I have to have a built in VF and - despite being a happy and comfortablre rangefinder shooter for over a decade, with XAs, Oly RCs, Leicas and more - I prefer the VF in the centre of the cam. Many, many, many users of this established design/handling aspect of the old SLRs do.

So maybe suck it up and stop whinging? This camera isn't for you. Buy an E-P3 and be a slave to the weather.

Maybe try seeing a potential advantage - potential thieves might mistake it for a 'worthless' 'old' film camera and leave you alone while stalking someone with a Sony NEX?

PS. the hot-shoe being elevated for a proper flash (built-in flashes suck except as wireless triggers, mostly) moves it vertically further from the exposure plane, reducing the likelihood/severity of red-eye.

So that 'silly pyramid you bemoan actually offers some advantages.

I actually want my camera to look like a camera , want the handling experience to be as close to my muscle memory of 15 years of film SLR use as possible - because it's confidence, comfort - almost to the point of their absence - with the tools that make creative expression flow most smoothly.

Even with all the design concessions, until I know whether or not I can adjust the metering/spot memory with the cam to my eye, this new digital from Oly will still be an ergonomic second to the old OM4Ti.

But it's as close as I can get, so I'll take it.

rant

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amvrvd
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re: the 'Silly pyramid'
In reply to rubydoomsday, Feb 5, 2012

I respect your view of things and I can see the appeal for other form factors besides the PEN.

BUT! unless proven otherwise that ¨silly hump¨ is unjustifiably large, we don't have all the detailed info on the specs but so far the only acceptable reason for the hump to be this tall would be if it allocates some important feature, because it certainly does not play any part in housing the EVF, which btw sit FAR below the level of the faux prism. The VF-2 is big only because of the hinge and accesory port, neither of which play any part in the volume of the built-in EVF, only the internals do.

So either the hump houses something unrelated like a new auxiliary PD-AF sensor like some Olympus patents showcased from last year or it houses something else. So far neither of those things have been even hinted at in the leaked specs so I think the hump is there, simply and unnecessarily, for looks alone.

And all of this is fine, everyone is free to choose their preferred form factor. The only thing that truly bothers me is precisely that, freedom of choice...Until the E-M5 was leaked, a flush top-plate EVF equipped PEN was within the possibilities, now ? it looks rather unprovable that Olympus would have TWO EVF equipped lines. That's what really bothers me, only because Olympus is truly capable of fulfilling everyone's needs but they CHOOSE to do Either/Or not both.

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Nic Walmsley
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re: the 'Silly pyramid'
In reply to rubydoomsday, Feb 5, 2012

I get what you are saying, but what if these forums help play a role in setting the future agenda of a camera company. Sounds far fetched, but we are living in the social media age now. Marketing departments have more influence than they should, but they have it.

So yeah, the huge hump is for you. But can't people come here and say it's not for them?

m43 is about size vs quality. If you lose the size advantage, people will wonder why you make the quality compromises.

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LMNCT
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re: the 'Silly pyramid'
In reply to amvrvd, Feb 5, 2012

The camera producers are not too far out of touch with the public (even if they do not do what we would like full time) and the SLR profile is recognizable by the majority of the public. People are inclined to trust and purchase items which are familiar. Not too stupid those camera people....remember the Edsel?

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rubydoomsday
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re: the 'Silly pyramid'
In reply to Nic Walmsley, Feb 6, 2012

There is no quality compromise here: it's metal, and weather-sealed.

This puts it - already, before you get to the hump and EVF contained therein - MILES ahead of every other m4/3 cam.

These are true pro features. My OM4Ti was made of freaking titanium - i've dropped it before from 5 feet onto concrete; not a whisper of an issue mechanically, electronically etc (yes, lucky it bounced lens up!).

I'll use any seriously built m4/3 cam, for sure. The aesthetics don't matter that much to me, it's the ergonomics of the OM4Ti I've always wanted.

None of the Exxx series were weather-sealed or had an adequate VF (O or E), otherwise I might have bought one, back in the day.

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Hen3ry
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Good rant, ruby, even if it is mostly rubbish, you got it out ...
In reply to rubydoomsday, Feb 6, 2012

... and it was probably better out than in!

rubydoomsday wrote:

Everyone calling the un-necessary pentaprism hump a 'silly pyramid' - guess what:

This camera isn't for you, and no-one can/will force you to buy it. Rest easy.

That's true -- this camera is aimed directly at poseurs who want the world to think they have a DSLR and (for the olds and bolds) are nostalgic for the fine Oly OM series.

In fact, there is a fair market niche among the emerging rich who are heavily into conspicuous consumption. A bulky DSLR around their neck is necessary bling. Olympus obviously hopes to get a piece of this market.

I can understand why Panasonic, best known for such things as toasters, would go for a traditional 35mm SLR appearance with the G and GH series. They needed the cred. Olympus doesn’t need cred -- it has it and what’s more, it's cred in pro sand prosumer markets is (or was) for really, really smart engineering, big function packed into small packages, and stylish design where form followed function.

In the OM-D, form doesn’t follow function.

The pentaprism hump was a part of the design of portable (35mm film) SLR type cameras for much longer than it's been absent (digital age). While the EM-5 may not be an SLR, it's designed to appeal to that level of user.

See above.

If you want a PEN, buy a PEN. I want weather-sealing.

But that has nothing to do with a fake pentaprism unless you think that the high humped roof will be ideal for sloughing off rain. Kind of like the hipped roof on your house. I can see the logic of that, except that there's not enough help t protect the whole camera, it doesn't have eaves, and most of all, it doesn't project out in front to protect the lens.

There is absolutely no reason why the PEN can’t be weather sealed. In fact, I'll bet that's the next step for the top of the line PEN.

Pentaprism matters not to me, but I have to have a built in VF and - despite being a happy and comfortable rangefinder shooter for over a decade, with XAs, Oly RCs, Leicas and more - I prefer the VF in the centre of the cam. Many, many, many users of this established design/handling aspect of the old SLRs do.

Apart from Leicas, the cameras you're talking about are P&S, albeit the top of the line, with fixed focal length lenses.

In fact, many pros went to SLRs reluctantly for a number of reasons, one was that with an SLR they couldn't keep both eyes open when they were shooting and thus keep seeing the developing picture environment -- important in many situations.

The central viewfinder was a necessity for most SLRs -- the function dictated the form. Users got used to that. Like you. You say you prefer it; actually, you had no choice so you learned to use your camera that way.

When Olympus introduced the PEN F SLR they didn't need the hump. They had the mirror moving sideways instead of vertically, so there was space for the (small) prism within the body which placed the VF at the end of the camera -- in much the same position it occupied in most rangefinder cameras. Good job -- you didn't have to get a nose flattening operation to use the camera comfortably as you need to do with most SLRs.

Oly actually did something like this with EVOLT 300 and 330 models. No hump! Unfortunately they forgot their roots and produced two cameras of remarkably large size and weight -- holding one was like holding a small coffin occupied by a rather fat person.

But then, all DSLRs were big and heavy!

So maybe suck it up and stop whinging? This camera isn't for you. Buy an E-P3 and be a slave to the weather.

That really is a silly thing to say. You’re suggesting the only advantage ffered by the OM-D is weather sealing?

Maybe try seeing a potential advantage - potential thieves might mistake it for a 'worthless' 'old' film camera and leave you alone while stalking someone with a Sony NEX?

You eman they would prefr a NEX 7 to a Nikon D3?

PS. the hot-shoe being elevated for a proper flash (built-in flashes suck except as wireless triggers, mostly) moves it vertically further from the exposure plane, reducing the likelihood/severity of red-eye.

Irrelevant since the advent of digital PP with red eye removal.

So that 'silly pyramid you bemoan actually offers some advantages.

I actually want my camera to look like a camera , want the handling experience to be as close to my muscle memory of 15 years of film SLR use as possible - because it's confidence, comfort - almost to the point of their absence - with the tools that make creative expression flow most smoothly.

Absence of comfort. YES, with the thing pressed into your nose. good call!

Even with all the design concessions, until I know whether or not I can adjust the metering/spot memory with the cam to my eye, this new digital from Oly will still be an ergonomic second to the old OM4Ti.

But it's as close as I can get, so I'll take it.

I can adjust the metering/spot memory fine with my E-PL3 with my eye to the VF-3 so I can’t imagine why that would be an issue.

I hope you enjoy your pseudo camera.

Cheers, geoff
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illy
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re: the 'Silly pyramid'
In reply to rubydoomsday, Feb 6, 2012

rubydoomsday wrote:

There is no quality compromise here: it's metal, and weather-sealed.

This puts it - already, before you get to the hump and EVF contained therein - MILES ahead of every other m4/3 cam.

unless you're not bothered about something made of metal with a few rubber bits on it, i'm more interested in how it performs than the non imaginative retro styling

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vincent filomena
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re: the 'Silly pyramid'
In reply to Louis_Dobson, Feb 6, 2012

Louis_Dobson wrote:

Still, my solution to that is to pair it with the E-PM1, Now that is pocketable! And they share lenses...

Soon as I saw the picture of the system today: You stole my plan !

Vjim

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Bob Meyer
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The English (as in England) version of whine. (n/t)
In reply to rubydoomsday, Feb 6, 2012
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Bokeh is the aesthetic quality of the blur in out-of-focus areas of an image, or the way the lens renders out-of-focus points of light. Bokeh is not the same as depth of field (DOF).

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Bob Meyer
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re: the 'Silly pyramid'
In reply to Nic Walmsley, Feb 6, 2012

Nic Walmsley wrote:

So yeah, the huge hump is for you. But can't people come here and say it's not for them?

Umm, haven't been here long? Over the last few months (and the last few years, probably), there have been hundreds, if not thousands, of posts from people saying they don't want a hump.

m43 is about size vs quality. If you lose the size advantage, people will wonder why you make the quality compromises.

Sorry, but size isn't the be-all and end-all of m43. Yes, small size matters, but even a GH2 with lenses is a lot smaller than any current DSLR with lenses. Getting the smallest form factor is most important to some buyers, but not all.
--

Bokeh is the aesthetic quality of the blur in out-of-focus areas of an image, or the way the lens renders out-of-focus points of light. Bokeh is not the same as depth of field (DOF).

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frosti7
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Its ok...
In reply to rubydoomsday, Feb 6, 2012

Your not whining,

just explaining in a very wierd way that you have never shot with a rangefinder, i can understand.

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jaylive
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re: the 'Silly pyramid'
In reply to Bob Meyer, Feb 6, 2012

Bob Meyer wrote:

Umm, haven't been here long? Over the last few months (and the last few years, probably), there have been hundreds, if not thousands, of posts from people saying they don't want a hump.

yes, thousands of posts possibly, but they have mostly been from the same people repeating the same thing over and over whenever a thread came up that it could be spewed.

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rubydoomsday
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Re: Good rant, ruby, even if it is mostly rubbish, you got it out ...
In reply to Hen3ry, Feb 6, 2012

Like you. You say you prefer it; actually, you had no choice so you learned to use your camera that way.

No, i have used plenty of rangefinders, P&S and loved doing so. I love SLR ergonomics more. I don't need the mirror slap, though.

But then, all DSLRs were big and heavy!

Who said anything about wanting it to handle like a DSLR? I wanted it to handle like an OM4Ti - a film SLR. If it gets close, I'll be happy.

That really is a silly thing to say. You’re suggesting the only advantage ffered by the OM-D is weather sealing?

The biggest, by a long way. Metal build a plus too, and I mean structurally, not for prettiness, like in the PENs. Something I can bash around with confidence and know it'll keep coming back, like my film OMs always have.

PEN was crappy to shoot gigs with, but not even because of ISO/noise quality - thing heated up after 45 minutes of continual use like a serious camera simply shouldn't.

I can adjust the metering/spot memory fine with my E-PL3 with my eye to the VF-3 so I can’t imagine why that would be an issue.

Good for you! I'll be able to do it in dust, rain, with a (likely) better sensor etc etc.

I don't really care what you or anyone else thinks about this camera, what I find bizarre is the amount of people who throw down about crap like aesthetics (which don't matter, or minimally at best) or ergonomics (which might require a bit of knowledge or research, or experience even) without having really thought about it.

Why do I chase the ergo of the OM series cams? Not for familiarity alone. Since the digital age I have used or owned: Camedia 5060, EOS 450/Rebel, Canon 5D, Canon 5DII (the Canons only to use Zuiko glass, but also shot some EF on assignments) Pentax K5 and various P&S models (G9) etc while ALSO continually shooting film in the OM4Ti and many rangefinders and P&S cams.

I single the OM out not because of my experience alone, but because by comparison to all my other shooting experiences, it suites how I work best. What I require is to be able to keep watching whatever is unfolding before me and make certain key adjustments with the cam at my eye.

The OM4's spot/memory collar around the shutter was/is the single most perfect (for me) ergonomic value of the whole OM system. Period. I'm gambling my entire interest in the EM-5/OM-D on the ability to assign various functions to buttons/dials that will allow me to replicate that shooting experience, hitherto not achievable with any PEN

I know; I owned an E-P2 as well. Good little cam, almost there, but for the image quality compared to other combinations.

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Spade357
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EP-3 + glue the VF-2 + plastic bag = E-M5...save your $$$
In reply to rubydoomsday, Feb 6, 2012

Olympus basically glue the VF-2 (yes its the same one on E-M5), used a "hand me down" sensor, sealed the cracks around the EP-3 to protect it from a drop of water, used an old retro body and finally added extra $$$ to make it a "Pro" camera.

Save your money and wait for the GH3.

Oh, wait, I forgot that you're into pyramids. Sorry, my bad. Ignore this post.

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frelwa
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Re: EP-3 + glue the VF-2 + plastic bag = E-M5...save your $$$
In reply to Spade357, Feb 6, 2012

Spade357 wrote:

Oh, wait, I forgot that you're into pyramids. Sorry, my bad. Ignore this post.

Done. And any other posts by you [+]
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