NIKON D4 ..Will it complete against new Canon able to do full frame 11 fps

Started Jan 24, 2012 | Discussions
tomboy
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NIKON D4 ..Will it complete against new Canon able to do full frame 11 fps
Jan 24, 2012

D3S U need to use dx format to get 11 frames a second

will i require to the same on the new D4 using dx format or will it be like new Canon able to full frame that able to do 12 images a second and 14 without auto focus

thanks in advance for your information

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Ray Soares
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Re: NIKON D4 ..Will it complete against new Canon able to do full frame 11 fps
In reply to tomboy, Jan 24, 2012

D4: Full frame 10 fps with auto focus in each frame.
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M Lammerse
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Re: NIKON D4 ..Will it complete against new Canon able to do full frame 11 fps
In reply to tomboy, Jan 24, 2012

Hi Tomboy,

It can do 10 frames with auto-focus in FX format.

I think that it is not the most wanted for many sports photographers of the D4, it's more the acquiring and focus tracking of the D4
And if I have to believe some interviews, it seems to be better and faster.

Michel

tomboy wrote:

D3S U need to use dx format to get 11 frames a second

will i require to the same on the new D4 using dx format or will it be like new Canon able to full frame that able to do 12 images a second and 14 without auto focus

thanks in advance for your information

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sfnikon
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Re: NIKON D4 ..Will it complete against new Canon able to do full frame 11 fps
In reply to tomboy, Jan 24, 2012

Canon promised the world with the 1DX but then has been strangely silent. If they can deliver on the fps with AF that can keep up they will have leapfrogged Nikon in flagship sports cameras.
This is a big if since they screwed up before with the 1Ds.
The summer olympics are coming up - this will be interesting.

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Grevture
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Re: NIKON D4 ..Will it complete against new Canon able to do full frame 11 fps
In reply to sfnikon, Jan 24, 2012

sfnikon wrote:

Canon promised the world with the 1DX but then has been strangely silent. If they can deliver on the fps with AF that can keep up they will have leapfrogged Nikon in flagship sports cameras.
This is a big if since they screwed up before with the 1Ds.
The summer olympics are coming up - this will be interesting.

Whats wrong with the 1Ds, and if so, which one of them?

I guess you were thinking of the 1D Mark III? Which has been replaced by the Mark IV where the AF is pretty good.

I see some people go nuts comparing numbers: 9, 10, 11, 12 fps ... Not that important actually. Of course there is a advantage with a higher fps rate, but the practical impact of the difference between 10 and 12 fps is very small. Give me a call when they get it to 20 fps or above ...

As others pointed out, AF performance will be much more interesting to see. As will image quality in difficult (not just weak) light.

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RedFox88
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Re: NIKON D4 ..Will it complete against new Canon able to do full frame 11 fps
In reply to sfnikon, Jan 25, 2012

sfnikon wrote:

The summer olympics are coming up - this will be interesting.

Great photographs of the summer olympics have been taken for decades. A camera that can to 1 or 2 more fps than 4 years ago really won't deliver any earth shattering images we've never seen before. Remember that a 1D3 (that did 10 fps) helped prove Michael Phelps won an event by 0.01 second.

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gonzalu
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I disagree. 1fps can be the difference between
In reply to Grevture, Jan 25, 2012

getting the shot or missing it. I have many more opportunities to get just the right frame in specially fast situations with a faster fps rate, even if 1fps difference Top one was shot at 5fps and the bottom one at 8fps

Poor fps

Better fps

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scorpiuspix
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Re: Sure, as long as a 1DX ever arrives...
In reply to tomboy, Jan 25, 2012
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jjnik
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Re: I disagree. 1fps can be the difference between
In reply to gonzalu, Jan 25, 2012

gonzalu wrote:

getting the shot or missing it. I have many more opportunities to get just the right frame in specially fast situations with a faster fps rate, even if 1fps difference Top one was shot at 5fps and the bottom one at 8fps

Poor fps
Better fps
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Odd blurring in the Blues passing shot on the Hornet in front when the rear plane is clean - it doesn't look like typical motion blur as it extends forward and rearward? Any idea what caused that? VR? Even the relatively slow shutter 1/250th wouldn't seemto cause this?

Also I get what you mean by higher fps helping to get the precise moment of two planes crossing, but this shot doesn't really show this - it actually wouldn't be bad without the funky blur on the front plane

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Grevture
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Re: I disagree. 1fps can be the difference between
In reply to gonzalu, Jan 25, 2012

gonzalu wrote:

getting the shot or missing it. I have many more opportunities to get just the right frame in specially fast situations with a faster fps rate, even if 1fps difference Top one was shot at 5fps and the bottom one at 8fps

Can be yes, but honestly, only rarely. I shoot a lot of sports, and I know, every advantage counts, its just I think sometimes people spend way to much time looking at numbers, and to little time thinking about all the other, less obvious factors, which often enough matter a whole lot more.

Going from 5 fps to 8 fps is a 60% increase in speed. That is very noticeable. The difference between 10 and 12 is 20%, which is quite a lot less noticeable.

Really nice shots btw

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footlong
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Re: NIKON D4 ..Will it complete against new Canon able to do full frame 11 fps
In reply to tomboy, Jan 25, 2012

Haven't seen a thread like this in a long time...

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jjnik
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Re: I disagree. 1fps can be the difference between
In reply to Grevture, Jan 25, 2012

Here's an example where 1 fps might make the difference between....

...getting this shot:

....or this shot:

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MrSkelter
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Re: I disagree. 1fps can be the difference between
In reply to jjnik, Jan 25, 2012

jjnik wrote:

Here's an example where 1 fps might make the difference between....

...getting this shot:

....or this shot:

I too want 'as-fast-as-technically-possible' but it's worth remembering the maths behind this.

12fps means an image every .083 second.

10fps means an image every .1 second.

In this comparison to "miss" a shot with a D4 you could get with a 1DX requires a significant change that takes place faster than the D4 can capture it and within the capability of the 1DX.

Let's assume that our frame covers a 10 metre distance, and crossing half the frame is enough to ruin the composition.

On the D4 that means moving 5 metres in .1 second, or at 111 mph
On the 1DX that means moving 5 metres in .083 second, or at 134 mph

How many people shoot anything moving at that speed with a narrower field of view?

For an Olympic sprinter, moving at less than 30 mph, you're not going to have any problem at all. At 10fps or 12fps, unless your subject is already at the very edge of the frame and moving at over 110 mph.

As it stands the Canon's fps advantage is meaningless 99.999% of the time. The D4 won't lose shots the 1DX is getting except via incompetence and luck.

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bgD300
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Re: I disagree. 1fps can be the difference between
In reply to jjnik, Jan 25, 2012

Looks like, in both shots he was panning left to right on the plane that ended up in back.
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Marianne Oelund
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It's normal blur
In reply to jjnik, Jan 25, 2012

jjnik wrote:

Odd blurring in the Blues passing shot on the Hornet in front when the rear plane is clean - it doesn't look like typical motion blur as it extends forward and rearward? Any idea what caused that? VR? Even the relatively slow shutter 1/250th wouldn't seemto cause this?

Blur can only occur symmetrically in this case, with an opaque subject against a light background. You cannot avoid blur on both leading and trailing edges, because the background light is passing through both swept areas, during part of the exposure.

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jjnik
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Re: It's normal blur
In reply to Marianne Oelund, Jan 25, 2012

Marianne Oelund wrote:

jjnik wrote:

Odd blurring in the Blues passing shot on the Hornet in front when the rear plane is clean - it doesn't look like typical motion blur as it extends forward and rearward? Any idea what caused that? VR? Even the relatively slow shutter 1/250th wouldn't seemto cause this?

Blur can only occur symmetrically in this case, with an opaque subject against a light background. You cannot avoid blur on both leading and trailing edges, because the background light is passing through both swept areas, during part of the exposure.

Thanks for explaining as I had not thought about it in that vein. Is that because he's panning in one direction and the blurred plane is traveling in the opposite direction or is it true of anything that is moving (and not tracked in focus) as you pan. I'm thinking it's the second as I see in the attached that I took but never analyzed for this. The stationary stuff seems to show what I'd call leading blur": (left to right motion), but the moving stuff (like the white BMW) seems to show the symetrical blur as you indicated:

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jjnik
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Re: I disagree. 1fps can be the difference between
In reply to MrSkelter, Jan 25, 2012

MrSkelter wrote:

jjnik wrote:
Here's an example where 1 fps might make the difference between....

...getting this shot:

....or this shot:

I too want 'as-fast-as-technically-possible' but it's worth remembering the maths behind this.

12fps means an image every .083 second.

10fps means an image every .1 second.

In this comparison to "miss" a shot with a D4 you could get with a 1DX requires a significant change that takes place faster than the D4 can capture it and within the capability of the 1DX.

Let's assume that our frame covers a 10 metre distance, and crossing half the frame is enough to ruin the composition.

On the D4 that means moving 5 metres in .1 second, or at 111 mph
On the 1DX that means moving 5 metres in .083 second, or at 134 mph

How many people shoot anything moving at that speed with a narrower field of view?

For an Olympic sprinter, moving at less than 30 mph, you're not going to have any problem at all. At 10fps or 12fps, unless your subject is already at the very edge of the frame and moving at over 110 mph.

As it stands the Canon's fps advantage is meaningless 99.999% of the time. The D4 won't lose shots the 1DX is getting except via incompetence and luck.

I understand and agree in most cases. These particular pictures were 1 frame apart (so they'd be frames 1 & 3) in an 8 fps second burst. What I mean by 1 fps making a difference is not so much capturing something moving accross the frame, but in getting that special expression/motion/moment of an activity within a burst. So in that sense more fps does increase your odds of getting that "magic" moment in some cases.

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MrSkelter
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Re: I disagree. 1fps can be the difference between
In reply to jjnik, Jan 25, 2012

jjnik wrote:

MrSkelter wrote:

jjnik wrote:
Here's an example where 1 fps might make the difference between....

...getting this shot:

....or this shot:

I too want 'as-fast-as-technically-possible' but it's worth remembering the maths behind this.

12fps means an image every .083 second.

10fps means an image every .1 second.

In this comparison to "miss" a shot with a D4 you could get with a 1DX requires a significant change that takes place faster than the D4 can capture it and within the capability of the 1DX.

Let's assume that our frame covers a 10 metre distance, and crossing half the frame is enough to ruin the composition.

On the D4 that means moving 5 metres in .1 second, or at 111 mph
On the 1DX that means moving 5 metres in .083 second, or at 134 mph

How many people shoot anything moving at that speed with a narrower field of view?

For an Olympic sprinter, moving at less than 30 mph, you're not going to have any problem at all. At 10fps or 12fps, unless your subject is already at the very edge of the frame and moving at over 110 mph.

As it stands the Canon's fps advantage is meaningless 99.999% of the time. The D4 won't lose shots the 1DX is getting except via incompetence and luck.

I understand and agree in most cases. These particular pictures were 1 frame apart (so they'd be frames 1 & 3) in an 8 fps second burst. What I mean by 1 fps making a difference is not so much capturing something moving accross the frame, but in getting that special expression/motion/moment of an activity within a burst. So in that sense more fps does increase your odds of getting that "magic" moment in some cases.

I agree with you too.

Though I will be guilty of it I'm sure in time, in those cases you're really shooting statistically (spray and pray) so though more frames are likely to produce a hit you're banking on luck anyway.

NB: With kids and animals spray-and-pray is perfectly valid. It's one reason I'm buying a D4.

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flashpixx
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Re: Sure, as long as a 1DX ever arrives...
In reply to scorpiuspix, Jan 25, 2012

scorpiuspix wrote:

http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/01/canon-eos-1d-x-battery-issues/

just like all the other bs about cameras that are not released yet. There is a thread over on sportshooter.com that shows a real canon employee using a real 1Dx and a real 200-400 and 600 f4.

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Grevture
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An advantage is always an advantage ;)
In reply to MrSkelter, Jan 25, 2012

I think we can all agree that 12 fps is better then 10 fps. But also it is only rarely that difference has any real world impact.

What I keep seeing in forums is people comparing numbers without - as you guys have - thinking very much about what those numbers mean in reality.

I saw a whole thread (in another forum, another camera brand) with a heated debate over 1.5% difference in DXO sensor rating ... I'll say thats probably within the margin of error ...

MrSkelter wrote:

Though I will be guilty of it I'm sure in time, in those cases you're really shooting statistically (spray and pray) so though more frames are likely to produce a hit you're banking on luck anyway.

In most sport photography, (and in many other genres) the essential issue above everything else is timing. This is why shutter lag matter, and this is why EVF will have a hard time ousting the OVF from pro cameras. I have a loaner Sony A77, really nice camera, fast, really fast, and a state of the art EVF. But when capturing specific moments, I still feel slightly handicapped by it. There is a slight delay between what is happening and what I see in the EVF. You end up doing more spray and pray, and sure, 12 fps is fast, but so fast it can compensate for true timing.

NB: With kids and animals spray-and-pray is perfectly valid. It's one reason I'm buying a D4.

And as much as sports photography relies on timing - there are always situations where there is no way of predict what is happening next. Not even the athletes involved really knows ...

And getting good pictures of kids, that is a true challenge for any camera. Kids are vary fast, and they tend to be close by also which make life difficult for the AF as well.

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