The M4/3 Paradox

Started Jan 15, 2012 | Discussions
amvrvd
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The M4/3 Paradox
Jan 15, 2012

So I was thinking,

Has anyone else noticed around here and other boards/sites (43rumors, stevehuff, etc..) the overwhelming tide of users clamoring for DSLR-sized mirrorless cameras ?

Every time a new camera is being speculated there's people jumping at the opportunity to DEMAND a (pardon the irony) mirrorless ¨DSLR¨ body. I've seen this happen to announcements/rumors made about Sony, Pentax, Fuji, Oly et all, there's at least one comment for every thread/rumor/announcement. Not only this but there's been an unexpected negative backlash towards so called ¨retro¨ looking cameras. Just 6 months ago everyone was drooling at the possibility of slim evf equipped body (just look at the clamor the X100 and Nex7 caused) but now people are suddenly ¨tired¨ of the retro look. Even now that Oly is about to release an OM body, people are arguing whether it should serve as a replacement for 43 bodies (even though a 43 body is expected as well). Last time I looked m43 lenses were small enough, where's the sudden need for huge bodies ?

Are we seeing a sudden case of massive consumer regret ?
Are former DSLR users disturbed by their choice to go mirrorless ?

If this is solely caused by different ergonomics, are then slim bodies incompatible with exchangeable grips ? Considering the 2x crop factor plus the inadequacy of mirrorless AF for sports or birding, what's the percentage of people who need huge long telephoto lenses and thus huge bodies?

Doesn't huge cameras, big lenses and thus tripods just negate the purpose of mirrorless ?

What's the reason for all this ? seriously, I'm sincerely confused by the contradiction.

If people really want DSLR ergonomics why not just get a proper DSLR ? you get better continuous AF, high ISO, lens catalogue, customer support, accessories, etc...Is it the need to stay trendy by using CSCs that outweighs the reality of their needs ? If so, then why not get a GH2 or G3.

What bothers me is the incessant reply to users eager for a slim EVF equipped camera to buy the aforementioned models, thus negating their plea as if the existence of other form factors would be a detriment to DSLR-faux bodies and coexistence was impossible. Broadening the market (as other companies have already done) can only be healthy to M43.

Many threads have touched one or other themes regarding this issue but not directly the ¨user¨ issue. I want to know where this phenomenon came from.

Cheers

Fujifilm FinePix X100 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH2 Sony Alpha NEX-7
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Jonathan F/2
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Re: The M4/3 Paradox
In reply to amvrvd, Jan 15, 2012

Mirrorless is too new for anyone to figure what to do with it. Honestly I think Olympus and Panasonic have the best balance so far. Fuji is just riding the wave, but in all honestly I believe the Fuji cameras are niche bodies at best and only attract the vocal minority on sites like Dpreview.

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Makinations
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Re: The M4/3 Paradox
In reply to amvrvd, Jan 15, 2012

amvrvd wrote:

So I was thinking,

Has anyone else noticed around here and other boards/sites (43rumors, stevehuff, etc..) the overwhelming tide of users clamoring for DSLR-sized mirrorless cameras ?

I haven't.

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SF Photo Gal
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Re: The M4/3 Paradox
In reply to Makinations, Jan 15, 2012

I think the drive for smaller and smaller is over. A camera gets too small, the ergonomics are off. I actually added a grip to my GF1 and I love it. Not to say that there's no place for a GF3, but many of us aren't so concerned about small.

My GH1, feels so totally comfortable and well balanced where as a G3, just feels too small, especially with a large lens.

Just a matter of preference and no reason m4/3 can meet all needs.

Also, I think some are beginning to feel that m4/3 has met the promise of IQ is some areas. No reason it shouldn't be very very close in terms of ISO and DR to APS, yet it hasn't quite closed the gap.

I've had both my GH1 and GF1 for over two years now, but right now, I'm reluctant to invest any more money into the system until I see some promise of more growth. Not giving up on yet, just kind of in a holding pattern. That said, I still enjoy them and my GF1 is STILL my first grab. (Well actually, my girl friend, my other GF1, is my first grab, but as far as cameras are concern, I go for my GF1 first.)

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amvrvd
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Re: The M4/3 Paradox
In reply to Makinations, Jan 15, 2012

@Makinations : You should start looking then.

Lot's of people are arguing against RF/retro/slim bodies even though we haven't seen a single honest design like that in m43. The pen line just looks retro (actually just the E-P line nowadays) but it's not retro in functionality. I could care less about ¨looks¨, that's entirely subjective, what I care about is functionality. I'm not and old geezer but I can appreciate the functionality old cameras delivered (Rangefinders AND SLRs), if it looks nice then it's just a plus.

There's wishful thinking and then there's people clamoring for Oly to go FF...this is the level of madness I'm talking about.

I say m43 is the healthier system out there, having diversity if companies, lenses and bodies is the way to go. People who don't see this and want to go back to the mediocrity of homogeneous-looking DSLRs are in denial. I'm sure breaking the DSLR mentality after all these years is difficult to say the least but some people are beyond helping.

Suddenly making slim EVF equipped bodies is called retro. I don't consider the NEX7 retro yet it features such functionality. If by pursuing a high degree of functionality in a compact body is considered retro then so be it, DSLR bodies are not the only ones to warrant direct controls, you can do that with slimmer bodies, it's been done before it can be done now and that is not a bad thing at all.

This doesn't negate the existence of faux DSLR bodies, in fact they look very healthy nowadays. We can all get what we want.

Edit: BTW, when I mean slim , I mean slim enough to fit decent controls and evf, not GF-3 size. The GF-3 and E-PM1 are just P&S replacements.

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Makinations
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Re: The M4/3 Paradox
In reply to amvrvd, Jan 15, 2012

Hardly an "overwhelming tide".

I see more people complaining about big cameras than I do those wishing for bigger ones. That's my only point. Don't let it derail any discussion you were looking to have.

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amvrvd
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Re: The M4/3 Paradox
In reply to Makinations, Jan 15, 2012

Six months ago I would've agreed totally, nowadays I think it's more like 50/50 which is a big turn around.

Whenever a whishlist thread was opened people would clamor for a RF like body from Olympus but then there were lots of people responding with ¨get a G3 then!¨ or ¨the GH2 meets all those needs¨. This in time, along with sony and fuji's releases, have turned into an animosity towards RF like cameras. As far as I'm concerned DSLRS are just as retro as RF cameras, it's not like they were invented last week. When getting rid of the DSLR hump you pretty much get a RF sized body (look at the G3 and GX1), and as far as I know that hump is useless and unnecessary with mirrorless.

Makinations wrote:

Hardly an "overwhelming tide".

I see more people complaining about big cameras than I do those wishing for bigger ones. That's my only point. Don't let it derail any discussion you were looking to have.

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PC Wheeler
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Re: The M4/3 Paradox
In reply to amvrvd, Jan 15, 2012

amvrvd wrote:

So I was thinking,

Has anyone else noticed around here and other boards/sites (43rumors, stevehuff, etc..) the overwhelming tide of users clamoring for DSLR-sized mirrorless cameras ?

Not really.

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Phil

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tedolf
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Total agreement....
In reply to SF Photo Gal, Jan 15, 2012

SF Photo Gal wrote:

I think the drive for smaller and smaller is over. A camera gets too small, the ergonomics are off. I actually added a grip to my GF1 and I love it. Not to say that there's no place for a GF3, but many of us aren't so concerned about small.

here.

The E-pl1 is about as small as you can go and still have good ergonomics for a variety of lenses. E-pl2 was even better (bigger grip).

GF-2 borders on too small.

GF-1 was just about perfect (except needed a better grip).

Don't like the ergonimics of e-pl3 and e-pm1-too small/screen too big. Don't need a big LCD if you have an EVF handy.

My GH1, feels so totally comfortable and well balanced where as a G3, just feels too small, especially with a large lens.

Just a matter of preference and no reason m4/3 can meet all needs.

Also, I think some are beginning to feel that m4/3 has met the promise of IQ is some areas. No reason it shouldn't be very very close in terms of ISO and DR to APS, yet it hasn't quite closed the gap.

I've had both my GH1 and GF1 for over two years now, but right now, I'm reluctant to invest any more money into the system until I see some promise of more growth. Not giving up on yet, just kind of in a holding pattern. That said, I still enjoy them and my GF1 is STILL my first grab. (Well actually, my girl friend, my other GF1, is my first grab, but as far as cameras are concern, I go for my GF1 first.)

Hey, your girlfriend would be my first grab too!

SF Photo Gal aka Queer Chick
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burnymeister
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LOL - have to agree! :-) (NM)
In reply to SF Photo Gal, Jan 15, 2012
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amvrvd
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Re: The M4/3 Paradox
In reply to PC Wheeler, Jan 15, 2012

Go see some of the comments here

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&message=40333178

PC Wheeler wrote:

amvrvd wrote:

So I was thinking,

Has anyone else noticed around here and other boards/sites (43rumors, stevehuff, etc..) the overwhelming tide of users clamoring for DSLR-sized mirrorless cameras ?

Not really.

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Phil

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andix
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N/T
In reply to amvrvd, Jan 15, 2012

(changed my mind)

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WhyNot
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Re: The M4/3 Paradox
In reply to amvrvd, Jan 15, 2012

amvrvd wrote:

...>

Doesn't huge cameras, big lenses and thus tripods just negate the purpose of mirrorless ?

Removing the mirror removes a mechanical device that should fail sooner than the EVF. Removing the mirror should make the camera lighter and ultimately less expensive to manufacture. ................ But let's turn your question around. If I can't put the camera with its EVF in my pocket or a small belt pouch then why would an extra inch or so in width matter if it gives me a better grip on the camera and reduces the chance of my accidentally pressing one of those small buttons? As a G2 owner I'd love to have it in lighter, thinner E-xxx body. (or maybe keep the whole body and give me a bigger battery too.)

....If people really want DSLR ergonomics why not just get a proper DSLR ? you get better continuous AF, high ISO, lens catalogue, customer support, accessories, etc...Is it the need to stay trendy by using CSCs that outweighs the reality of their needs ? If so, then why not get a GH2 or G3. ....>

I suspect that many of ueers are trying to find a home for our FT lenses and/or like Olymius or Panasonic cameras better than the alternative.

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sigala1
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Sony A65/A77
In reply to amvrvd, Jan 15, 2012

amvrvd wrote:

So I was thinking,

Has anyone else noticed around here and other boards/sites (43rumors, stevehuff, etc..) the overwhelming tide of users clamoring for DSLR-sized mirrorless cameras ?

Hasn't Sony already sort of provided this with the A65 and A77 cameras? (Well, there's a "translucent mirror" but it doesn't move so it's more like a mirorrless camera but with phase-detect focusing.)

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exdeejjjaaaa
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Re: The M4/3 Paradox
In reply to WhyNot, Jan 15, 2012

WhyNot wrote:

Removing the mirror removes a mechanical device that should fail sooner than the EVF.

actually failing is a total non issue - you will upgrade your camera much sooner...

where are the reports of failed mirrors ? I never run into any posting about failed mechanical mirror...

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Louis_Dobson
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Re: The M4/3 Paradox
In reply to amvrvd, Jan 15, 2012

First off, I doubt we will get another FT body (love to be wrong though).

I'd like to see Oly have an MFT E5 replacement AND small bodies.

And I will buy both. I want a "real" camera AND a pocketable one, and I want to be able to use the same lenses on both.
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tedolf
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Re: LOL - have to agree! :-) (NM)
In reply to burnymeister, Jan 15, 2012

burnymeister wrote:

See that Timmy.

Another TEdolph Zombie!

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PC Wheeler
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Re: The M4/3 Paradox
In reply to amvrvd, Jan 15, 2012

amvrvd wrote:

Go see some of the comments here

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&message=40333178

Why would I bother?

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Charles Pike
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failed mirror.
In reply to exdeejjjaaaa, Jan 15, 2012

I have had an Nikormat mirror fail, but only after several years of use. My first SLR was an Agfa, and the prism was an extra that you had to buy if you wanted one. I was in the Army and couldn't afford the add on, and it was a lot of fun shooting moving subjects with that waist level view finder. If your subject was moving left to right in front of you, it was moving right to left on the screen.

The G3 is about perfect for me.

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WhyNot
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Re: The M4/3 Paradox
In reply to exdeejjjaaaa, Jan 15, 2012

exdeejjjaaaa wrote:

WhyNot wrote:

Removing the mirror removes a mechanical device that should fail sooner than the EVF.

actually failing is a total non issue - you will upgrade your camera much sooner...

where are the reports of failed mirrors ? I never run into any posting about failed mechanical mirror...

Sorry, I wasn't expecting to have to prove all my statements on a forum like this: so, I'll concede your point if you'll allow my actual point, that there are many reasons for mFT that are not the size of the camera body.

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