What should be done with cheats ? part 2

Started Jan 10, 2012 | Discussions
RaptorUK
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What should be done with cheats ? part 2
Jan 10, 2012

They keep on doing it . . .

This entry was taken on Taken: Thursday, 6th January, 2011 for a Challenge in January 2011

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=369140

yet here it is again, but this time taken on "Tuesday, 3rd January, 2012 "

abracadabenhotmailfr you are a CHEAT and a LIAR.

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=567394&View=NewFirst&Rows=25

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Re: What should be done with cheats ? part 2
In reply to RaptorUK, Jan 10, 2012

Nice spotting job.

Now if the really effective tools were available, we'd get to see one Cheater less in the community... As pointed numerous times before, EXIF magic does not happen all by itself, and neither by any software glitch: it is a premeditated attempt to Cheat and also Steal (someone else's rightful rank within the challenge).

Utterly unacceptable and degrading to DPR, the overwhelming majority of honest members, and so on...
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jmgir
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Re: What should be done with cheats ? part 2
In reply to Deleted pending purge, Jan 10, 2012

Exactly, my comments will feel redundant but there is a need to reemphasize and support the fact that the Cheating Behavior of a few are unacceptable and insults DPR and the honest members of the community. As noted previously and again in your thread, the modification of EXIF data is an deliberate attempt at Cheating, it doesn't happen by mistake and the Cheats should be banned permanently from DPR.

OldArrow wrote:

Nice spotting job.

Now if the really effective tools were available, we'd get to see one Cheater less in the community... As pointed numerous times before, EXIF magic does not happen all by itself, and neither by any software glitch: it is a premeditated attempt to Cheat and also Steal (someone else's rightful rank within the challenge).

Utterly unacceptable and degrading to DPR, the overwhelming majority of honest members, and so on...
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Slynky
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Re: What should be done with cheats ? part 2
In reply to jmgir, Jan 10, 2012

Need to chime in with my redundant agreement. Sigh...

I have entered a challenge recently. I plan to enter some more (now that the hustle and bustle of the holiday season is over) but to tell the truth, I'm not very excited about it because I wonder in any given challenge just how much cheating DPR is allowing to go on without (it seems) any concern. I mean, it's not like I have potential 1st place material and feel I'm getting cheated but I DO wonder how far down the rank I go due to the number of people that finished above me that cheated.

And I feel sorry for the poor "innocent" people that enter the challenges not even visiting this forum (like I did for many months) who don't even know about the rampant and blatant cheating that goes on. They might get 50th out of 100 and think they are average when there might be 10 people who participated in some kind of cheat to get ahead of them.

If you're going to offer a feature, then it should be policed. If you're going to offer contests/challenges, then they should be policed. Don't brag about a component of your website when it has no more integrity than the proverbial used car salesman.

jmgir wrote:

Exactly, my comments will feel redundant but there is a need to reemphasize and support the fact that the Cheating Behavior of a few are unacceptable and insults DPR and the honest members of the community. As noted previously and again in your thread, the modification of EXIF data is an deliberate attempt at Cheating, it doesn't happen by mistake and the Cheats should be banned permanently from DPR.

OldArrow wrote:

Nice spotting job.

Now if the really effective tools were available, we'd get to see one Cheater less in the community... As pointed numerous times before, EXIF magic does not happen all by itself, and neither by any software glitch: it is a premeditated attempt to Cheat and also Steal (someone else's rightful rank within the challenge).

Utterly unacceptable and degrading to DPR, the overwhelming majority of honest members, and so on...
--
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RickBuddy
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Re: What should be done with cheats ? part 2
In reply to RaptorUK, Jan 11, 2012

I think "What we should do with cheats" would make an excellent challenge in my series, "Shades of Darkness." My only reservations is that I have a really good concept I'd like to enter.

Oh wait, I think that concept was done well in "No Country for Old Men."

Maybe it will be a challenge topic!

Rick
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Slynky
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Re: What should be done with cheats ? part 2
In reply to RickBuddy, Jan 11, 2012

LOL

So, do you thiink such a topic would attract or discourage more cheats to join in?

RickBuddy wrote:

I think "What we should do with cheats" would make an excellent challenge in my series, "Shades of Darkness." My only reservations is that I have a really good concept I'd like to enter.

Oh wait, I think that concept was done well in "No Country for Old Men."

Maybe it will be a challenge topic!

Rick
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libertylady
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Re: What should be done with cheats ? part 2
In reply to Slynky, Jan 11, 2012

Do those that have been identified as cheating in someway often post in forums? I was just thinking that if they didn't then a host might require a minimum number of posts/comments (like 25) to sort out at least some of those that like to defy the rules. Just a thought. When I start hosting, if I do, then I might try that and see if that helps.

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onlooker
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Re: What should be done with cheats ? part 2
In reply to libertylady, Jan 11, 2012

libertylady wrote:

I was just thinking that if they didn't then a host might require a minimum number of posts/comments (like 25)

Someone tried it before. The number of submissions fell so desperately, the experiment ended quickly.

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libertylady
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Re: What should be done with cheats ? part 2
In reply to onlooker, Jan 11, 2012

Yes, I can see that might be the result. Thanks.

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Slynky
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Re: What should be done with cheats ? part 2
In reply to onlooker, Jan 11, 2012

There must have been some success...I saw several challenges with minimum post requirements. One that even required over 4,000 posts ! Granted, I didn't pay attention to how many entries there were...

Certainly, requiring 25, 50, or 100 posts might put a dent into the people with multiple accounts. And if there was a drastic dropoff rate, maybe it was because all the multiple accounts were prevented from entering...LOL

On a side note, how does one enforce that? I mean, the host only sees a random number--how does the host tell how many posts that person has? Or is it some automatic website thingy?

onlooker wrote:

libertylady wrote:

I was just thinking that if they didn't then a host might require a minimum number of posts/comments (like 25)

Someone tried it before. The number of submissions fell so desperately, the experiment ended quickly.

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RaptorUK
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Re: What should be done with cheats ? part 2
In reply to Slynky, Jan 11, 2012

The Host can see the Entrants so just checks their Profile for their post count.

Slynky wrote:

On a side note, how does one enforce that? I mean, the host only sees a random number--how does the host tell how many posts that person has? Or is it some automatic website thingy?

onlooker wrote:

libertylady wrote:

I was just thinking that if they didn't then a host might require a minimum number of posts/comments (like 25)

Someone tried it before. The number of submissions fell so desperately, the experiment ended quickly.

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(...from the generation that still uses capital letters and punctuation...)

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Slynky
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Re: What should be done with cheats ? part 2
In reply to RaptorUK, Jan 11, 2012

Oh, yeah. I'm getting it confused with the voters anonymity (random number).

Thanks.

RaptorUK wrote:
The Host can see the Entrants so just checks their Profile for their post count.

Slynky wrote:

On a side note, how does one enforce that? I mean, the host only sees a random number--how does the host tell how many posts that person has? Or is it some automatic website thingy?

onlooker wrote:

libertylady wrote:

I was just thinking that if they didn't then a host might require a minimum number of posts/comments (like 25)

Someone tried it before. The number of submissions fell so desperately, the experiment ended quickly.

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A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America," for an amount of "up to and including my life".

(...from the generation that still uses capital letters and punctuation...)

-- hide signature --

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(...from the generation that still uses capital letters and punctuation...)

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Slynky
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Re: What should be done with cheats ? part 2
In reply to RaptorUK, Jan 11, 2012

Does a person have to be a member to vote? (I guess I could dig up the info somewhere but if someone knows, the "yes" or "no" will be easy to type )
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Re: What should be done with cheats ? part 2
In reply to Slynky, Jan 11, 2012

Slynky wrote:

...

On a side note, how does one enforce that? I mean, the host only sees a random number--how does the host tell how many posts that person has? Or is it some automatic website thingy?

That's why I propose(d) that hosts should see the voter nicknames within the voting phase (and normally do not see them when competing, which they can only do in other challenges anyway). This detective business is very time-consuming and hosts are really hard pressed to find a cheater, relate the anonymizing # to a nickname, and then report to DPR... Of course, the evidence must be irrefutable or one can't even hope for any positive action.
Just for example purposes:

In "Water Colors" Challenge DA entered the picture
http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=544728

It is the same picture shown in Stormcastle Flickr account (same capture date, and just cropped a bit.)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stormcastle/6118587558/in/photostream

Another bit of evidence: http://stormcastle.wordpress.com/
... and a blog was linked from a forum comment from DA
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1000&message=39824784

This was another member's hard work for which I'm thankful, because one can't see everything. But some Light At The End Of A Tunnel can be seen in co-ordinated effort to eliminate Cheats! And it would be a lot easier if Hosts were helped in that by at least having some obstacles removed. The times have changed, and initial good intentions from the bygone era of optimistically built Challenge concepts must change too. Otherwise the Challenges might become places the honest photographers will avoid, from sheer frustration...

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Slynky
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Re: What should be done with cheats ? part 2
In reply to Deleted pending purge, Jan 11, 2012

You know, I've not done much sleuthing myself but I have tried to see if entries were stolen or if they appeared in other challenges on DPR. So, I thought I'd use http://www.tineye.com/ .

Guess what? It can't seem to see images on DPR!

And, using the FLICKR link, it can't find any other posts of that particular image. I've seen TinEye find images a lot of times, though, all over. But it won't seem to show DPR images. I guess it might be because DPR uses this proprietary forum software...

OldArrow wrote:

Slynky wrote:

...

On a side note, how does one enforce that? I mean, the host only sees a random number--how does the host tell how many posts that person has? Or is it some automatic website thingy?

That's why I propose(d) that hosts should see the voter nicknames within the voting phase (and normally do not see them when competing, which they can only do in other challenges anyway). This detective business is very time-consuming and hosts are really hard pressed to find a cheater, relate the anonymizing # to a nickname, and then report to DPR... Of course, the evidence must be irrefutable or one can't even hope for any positive action.
Just for example purposes:

In "Water Colors" Challenge DA entered the picture
http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=544728

It is the same picture shown in Stormcastle Flickr account (same capture date, and just cropped a bit.)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stormcastle/6118587558/in/photostream

Another bit of evidence: http://stormcastle.wordpress.com/
... and a blog was linked from a forum comment from DA
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1000&message=39824784

This was another member's hard work for which I'm thankful, because one can't see everything. But some Light At The End Of A Tunnel can be seen in co-ordinated effort to eliminate Cheats! And it would be a lot easier if Hosts were helped in that by at least having some obstacles removed. The times have changed, and initial good intentions from the bygone era of optimistically built Challenge concepts must change too. Otherwise the Challenges might become places the honest photographers will avoid, from sheer frustration...

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A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America," for an amount of "up to and including my life".

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RaptorUK
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Re: What should be done with cheats ? part 2
In reply to Slynky, Jan 11, 2012

Yes.

Slynky wrote:

Does a person have to be a member to vote? (I guess I could dig up the info somewhere but if someone knows, the "yes" or "no" will be easy to type )
--

A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America," for an amount of "up to and including my life".

(...from the generation that still uses capital letters and punctuation...)

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Re: What should be done with cheats ? part 2
In reply to Slynky, Jan 11, 2012

Slynky,

You're right... but there are more ways to skin a cheat. One of the most effective is in co-ordinated action of well-minded, honest members who don't hesitate to give warnings to those challenge hosts who care.

There are also some half-automated ways which I think could aid in smoking out cheats... the IT people surely know more about them than me.

Main component in all those efforts is without any doubt DPR. Our site should decide upon erasing of all sorts of cheating, to protect the correctly behaving majority from low life. The benefits will, IMO, become immediately visible. The World's Best Photo Site foundation can only exist upon widely recognized credibility and if the cheatings are seriously frowned upon, more honest photographers will join.

But all that has been said thousands of times over. Let's hope for some action...
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RaptorUK
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Re: What should be done with cheats ? part 2
In reply to Slynky, Jan 11, 2012

IMO TinEye is not very good . . . . use Google Images, drag an image from a users Gallery onto the search box.

or try this:

Slynky wrote:

You know, I've not done much sleuthing myself but I have tried to see if entries were stolen or if they appeared in other challenges on DPR. So, I thought I'd use http://www.tineye.com/ .

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RaptorUK
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Re: What should be done with cheats ? part 2
In reply to Deleted pending purge, Jan 11, 2012

DPR seem to be taking some action on multiple IDs . . . but not "Date taken" cheats . . . yet the "Date taken" cheats act to deliberately Cheat, there is no "oops I made a genuine mistake" here, and they can be shown to be Cheats and Liars beyond ANY doubt . . . yet nothing happens.

WHY ? ?

I guess it won't be long before DPR roll out the old "it's upto the Hosts to decide" excuse . . . FINE ! ! give the Host the ability to BAN a Member from DPR . . or at the very least to BAN an Entrant from their future Challenges.

OldArrow wrote:

But all that has been said thousands of times over. Let's hope for some action...
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Slynky
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Re: What should be done with cheats ? part 2
In reply to RaptorUK, Jan 11, 2012

Now, there's an idea I don't recall reading before (doesn't mean it wasn't written somewhere, though ;)).

Two kinds of bans. Bans from all the forums/DPR. Complete ban. Like is done now.

And a second kind (less of a punishment but suitable to me), banned from entering challenges.

RaptorUK wrote:

DPR seem to be taking some action on multiple IDs . . . but not "Date taken" cheats . . . yet the "Date taken" cheats act to deliberately Cheat, there is no "oops I made a genuine mistake" here, and they can be shown to be Cheats and Liars beyond ANY doubt . . . yet nothing happens.

WHY ? ?

I guess it won't be long before DPR roll out the old "it's upto the Hosts to decide" excuse . . . FINE ! ! give the Host the ability to BAN a Member from DPR . . or at the very least to BAN an Entrant from their future Challenges.

OldArrow wrote:

But all that has been said thousands of times over. Let's hope for some action...
--
Fil

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A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America," for an amount of "up to and including my life".

(...from the generation that still uses capital letters and punctuation...)

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