Congratulations Nikon, great 1080 HD FX video, but why only 16 MP?

Started Jan 6, 2012 | Discussions
ScottMac
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Re: Interesting read, these two posts. Thanks!
In reply to J Mankila, Jan 8, 2012

J Mankila wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

..... There's a good chance if Nikon makes the NR rumoured D800 that they will clean up.....

Agreed. But I see a problem in that as well. How could Nikon update it? The D800 would offer almost more than enough resolution for years to come, valid HD video and, judging by the NR images, matured ergonomics.

Not a problem for MF, they are up to 80 MP. Besides, Nikon is working on mirrorless, right, that needs a lot of refinement.

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ScottMac
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Re: By the way, and as an aside and new prediction
In reply to bobn2, Jan 8, 2012

bobn2 wrote:

ScottMac wrote:

By the way, and as an aside and new prediction:

Well your prediction record vs. NR's on the D4 doesn't stack up too well. You seem better at predicting what won't happen. You had some success predicting that Nikon wouldn't break their four year pro model release cycle in 2010. You were successful in your prediction that they would break it (by not releasing the next generation) in 2011, but I suspect that you were rescued buy a tsunami and some flooding.

Well, I did make the 2011 no FX prediction well before either disaster, so there you go.

By the way, you have hit on in one of your posts why I predicted no new FX, and no 5DM2 spec and price from Nikon for all of 2010 and 2011. I knew the success of the 5DM2 was a game changer, I knew Nikon knew this and knew they had to respond. I also knew it would take them at least two full years to make the camera and it did.

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bobn2
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Re: Congratulations Nikon, great 1080 HD FX video, but why only 16 MP?
In reply to ScottMac, Jan 8, 2012

ScottMac wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

So, in the end, I suspect that Nikons people decided that they need a slice of the low end high res FF business, and you cant have both, as Canon has found out.

I said this exact thing years ago in dozens of posts that no one agreed with, in fact they were insanely, aggressively saying Nikon was intentionally staying out of this market because it was crap.

But they still haven't done it, so either they still don't want it, or it took them all this time to make a camera that can compete with the 5DM2 spec and price.

I think Nikon has quite limited sensor design capacity of its own. To get the range of sensors to fit everything, they need to go with what they can get from other vendors. Simply, the question of matching the 5DII has been sourcing a sensor. The 5DII has binning on the sensor chip to allow video without dropping too many lines (which reduces the light captured and therefore gives more noise). The old Sony 24MP pixel didn't have any way of achieving videoframe rates apart from line skipping, and that would have left Nikon's 5DII competitor seriously deficient in video. Plus, I think there was a feeling that the D700 had carved out its own little market, which as better than nothing.
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bobn2
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Re: By the way, and as an aside and new prediction
In reply to ScottMac, Jan 8, 2012

ScottMac wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

A similar design consideration for Canon using their largest available pixel (apart from the 1D X pixel) puts the 5DIII at 32MP, so that's what we're expecting for the 5DIII. If the D800 doesn't have an MP count in the 30MP's it's not at the party.

The other interesting aspect to these possible super high Mp cameras is that they can have color and noise issues even at optimal iso like the 5DM2 does (purple fringing and color shifts across the sensor) if they have superior video, which the 5DM2 does.

In video? Yes, that's the problem of crude downsampling such as binning. Tons of aliasing. I think in the D4 they are doing all this properly, in the EXPEED.

It's almost as if the somewhat imperfect high MP drives in the customers, but the great 1080 HD keeps them from complaining when they discover the old Kodak slrn problems are still there for very high MP.

Ah, you mean stills. That is a case again of viewing too close. Like all other lens aberrations, more MP lessens their effect in the final image (if not always very much at all) but at 100% they can look bad. Still there are other strategies. This is an extract from my reply to a pm from Thom (saves writing it again)

There was a post I made on the Sony pixel choices, and was saying that the 54MP you'd get from a NEX7 sensor was too many. But after a year of a 32MP 5DIII and a 36MP D800, would it seem too many? One way to finally do for the residual MF market would be a 54MP D4X. If you look at the Hasselblad 50MP back, it has a QE of just 16% (the Phase 1 Plus is not much better at 22%) and a sensor area of 1800mm^2. This D4X would have a QE of 48% (3x) and a sensor area of 864mm^2 (0.48x) so it's actually going to have a half stop advantage over the Hassy in photon collection and SNR. To make it credible, they could match it with a small range of very expensive (MF prices) hyper primes slotted in above the current top end Nikkors. Make them diffraction limited from f/2.8 or so, with f/1.4 maximum apertures which is not technically infeasible if people are willing to pay for it, and you get a system that delivers everything MF does and more, with full compatibility with the rest of the Nikon line. I think that would probably sell at considerably more than $8000, if they could unequivocally demonstrate the IQ.

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bobn2
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Re: By the way, and as an aside and new prediction
In reply to ScottMac, Jan 8, 2012

ScottMac wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

ScottMac wrote:

By the way, and as an aside and new prediction:

Well your prediction record vs. NR's on the D4 doesn't stack up too well. You seem better at predicting what won't happen. You had some success predicting that Nikon wouldn't break their four year pro model release cycle in 2010. You were successful in your prediction that they would break it (by not releasing the next generation) in 2011, but I suspect that you were rescued buy a tsunami and some flooding.

Well, I did make the 2011 no FX prediction well before either disaster, so there you go.

I think the disasters saved your a$$. It's pretty clear noew that teh original D4 launch was nov 2011.

By the way, you have hit on in one of your posts why I predicted no new FX, and no 5DM2 spec and price from Nikon for all of 2010 and 2011. I knew the success of the 5DM2 was a game changer, I knew Nikon knew this and knew they had to respond. I also knew it would take them at least two full years to make the camera and it did.

In detail, you'll be right, because I doubt they'll go right down to 5D price. The $4k sounds about right to me, and if it has the specs rumoured and the DR that the Exmor chip will give it, plus a decent subset of the D4 video capability, it will outsell the 5DIII even at $1k more. The DR is the killer, plus freedom from Canon pattern noise. There's a whole load of 5D and 5DII owners who'd pay an extra $1k just for that.
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Horshack
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Re: By the way, and as an aside and new prediction
In reply to bobn2, Jan 8, 2012

bobn2 wrote:

In detail, you'll be right, because I doubt they'll go right down to 5D price. The $4k sounds about right to me, and if it has the specs rumoured and the DR that the Exmor chip will give it, plus a decent subset of the D4 video capability, it will outsell the 5DIII even at $1k more. The DR is the killer, plus freedom from Canon pattern noise. There's a whole load of 5D and 5DII owners who'd pay an extra $1k just for that.
--

I think you're right. The D800 should have a remarkable sensor, blowing away everything else on the 35mm DSLR landscape, including the D3x. It should have a very long shelf life as well, at least 3 years. I think Nikon knows this, just like they did for the D3x, but this time they're going to cash in with much larger volumes. The only one who can spoil their party is Sony, esp. if they can get out their mirrorless FF body this year using the same sensor.

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bobn2
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Re: By the way, and as an aside and new prediction
In reply to Horshack, Jan 8, 2012

Horshack wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

In detail, you'll be right, because I doubt they'll go right down to 5D price. The $4k sounds about right to me, and if it has the specs rumoured and the DR that the Exmor chip will give it, plus a decent subset of the D4 video capability, it will outsell the 5DIII even at $1k more. The DR is the killer, plus freedom from Canon pattern noise. There's a whole load of 5D and 5DII owners who'd pay an extra $1k just for that.
--

I think you're right. The D800 should have a remarkable sensor, blowing away everything else on the 35mm DSLR landscape, including the D3x. It should have a very long shelf life as well, at least 3 years. I think Nikon knows this, just like they did for the D3x, but this time they're going to cash in with much larger volumes. The only one who can spoil their party is Sony, esp. if they can get out their mirrorless FF body this year using the same sensor.

Sony's 'mirrorless' will be an SLT, and blow 1/2 a stop of sensor efficiency. No problem. Even if it isn't, I would think the Nikon, with better lens support, better brand credibility in this market, and a proper DSLR VF will smoke it. That is all assuming Canon hasn't the tech to match the Sony sensors. I don't think they do.
--
Bob

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Horshack
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SLT + NEX FF on deck
In reply to bobn2, Jan 8, 2012

bobn2 wrote:

Sony's 'mirrorless' will be an SLT, and blow 1/2 a stop of sensor efficiency. No problem. Even if it isn't, I would think the Nikon, with better lens support, better brand credibility in this market, and a proper DSLR VF will smoke it. That is all assuming Canon hasn't the tech to match the Sony sensors. I don't think they do.
--

Yeah, the SLT models don't interest me unless they finally implement an SLT-lockup feature. According to sonyalpharumors.com Sony has 'authorized' the development of a FF NEX. I think that's where it gets very interesting. Their only competitor in that space is the $7k M9. They could probably sell all they could build for $3k/each and their margins would be much higher than their SLT DSLRs. Lens selection wont be an issue if they use a short registration distance like they do for their E-mount APS-C NEXs.

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bobn2
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Re: SLT + NEX FF on deck
In reply to Horshack, Jan 8, 2012

Horshack wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

Sony's 'mirrorless' will be an SLT, and blow 1/2 a stop of sensor efficiency. No problem. Even if it isn't, I would think the Nikon, with better lens support, better brand credibility in this market, and a proper DSLR VF will smoke it. That is all assuming Canon hasn't the tech to match the Sony sensors. I don't think they do.
--

Yeah, the SLT models don't interest me unless they finally implement an SLT-lockup feature. According to sonyalpharumors.com Sony has 'authorized' the development of a FF NEX. I think that's where it gets very interesting. Their only competitor in that space is the $7k M9. They could probably sell all they could build for $3k/each and their margins would be much higher than their SLT DSLRs. Lens selection wont be an issue if they use a short registration distance like they do for their E-mount APS-C NEXs.

I think a complete new system would be hard to get off the ground, all in all, but it will be interesting. Of course, quite a bit of studio work these days is done tethered, so for that the VF isn't an issue.
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Bob

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jjnik
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Re: By the way, and as an aside and new prediction
In reply to ScottMac, Jan 8, 2012

ScottMac wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

ScottMac wrote:

By the way, and as an aside and new prediction:

Well your prediction record vs. NR's on the D4 doesn't stack up too well. You seem better at predicting what won't happen. You had some success predicting that Nikon wouldn't break their four year pro model release cycle in 2010. You were successful in your prediction that they would break it (by not releasing the next generation) in 2011, but I suspect that you were rescued buy a tsunami and some flooding.

Well, I did make the 2011 no FX prediction well before either disaster, so there you go.

Well, gee, congratulations - it would not have taken a rocket scientist to make this prediction after the disasters - though you still have maintained they had no impact. For someone who seems to think they are so smart with their ability to "predict" things, you continue to demonstrate an amazing level of ignorance (and insensitivity to the magnitude and impact of these disasters) in your posts.

By the way, you have hit on in one of your posts why I predicted no new FX, and no 5DM2 spec and price from Nikon for all of 2010 and 2011. I knew the success of the 5DM2 was a game changer, I knew Nikon knew this and knew they had to respond. I also knew it would take them at least two full years to make the camera and it did.

Please - you didn't KNOW anything about what Nikon would and would not do back then and you still don't KNOW anything. Yet you have dismissed anyone who SPECULATED otherwise.

Also, if you KNEW it would take them at least 2 full years to make a camera to "respond" to the 5D2, then why did you continue to maintain that there was no D4 until it was announced and you continue to maintain there will be no D800 (you also said that you felt that Nikon was not even working on anything in FX a few times in the last several months)? BTW, I think that Nikon has not yet responded to the 5D2 as the D4 is not positioned as a 5D2 competitor, yet you now seem to think they have?

And after obsessively railing on Nikon because they did not make the moderately priced, High MP, 1080P camera you wanted and saying that the D4 spec did not interest you as it it was too low in MP and too expensive:

“I still do think there may be no D4 announcement Friday. I think there may be something else in the works for FX. Besides, if it's 16 MP for $6,000, you can have it, I'm not interested.”

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1021&message=40231404

Now you decide to buy it (when a higher MP, 1080P you have been asking for is likely to be announced shortly, whether or not you believe it):

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1021&message=40260294

In addition, you have said that there is no D800 coming, but you don’t respond to posts like these that support the info that NR has thrown out there on a possible D800:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1021&message=40263357

To me you’ve demonstrated you have zero credibility on this stuff. I know I had said I would not respond to your continued trolling but your arrogance pulled me back in 1 more time. Shame on me!

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Ilkka Nissilä
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Re: Congratulations Nikon, great 1080 HD FX video, but why only 16 MP?
In reply to worldcup1982, Jan 8, 2012

In 2010 he was in Finland giving a talk at the local university and he said he only now (then) uses(d) a D3X + 24-70, with a 50 somewhere in the bag and a flash.

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ScottMac
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Re: By the way, and as an aside and new prediction
In reply to jjnik, Jan 8, 2012

jjnik wrote:

Shame on me!

That's exactly right. And I think at this point it's pretty obvious your views, indeed your continuing vendetta, is in the minority here. Your obsession with me is bordering on trolling.

Responding to my posts with an alternate view is okay, using your imagined, negative distortion of my personality gets you nowhere. But you're right, you should give it up.

I have no beef with you, but your posts are obsessive, and I think you know that.

Yeah, it would easy for you to rail against this post also, but why bother, everyone already knows what you are going to say.

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ScottMac
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Re: By the way, and as an aside and new prediction
In reply to bobn2, Jan 8, 2012

bobn2 wrote:

ScottMac wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

Agree with your recent posts.

A similar design consideration for Canon using their largest available pixel (apart from the 1D X pixel) puts the 5DIII at 32MP, so that's what we're expecting for the 5DIII. If the D800 doesn't have an MP count in the 30MP's it's not at the party.

The other interesting aspect to these possible super high Mp cameras is that they can have color and noise issues even at optimal iso like the 5DM2 does (purple fringing and color shifts across the sensor) if they have superior video, which the 5DM2 does.

In video? Yes, that's the problem of crude downsampling such as binning. Tons of aliasing. I think in the D4 they are doing all this properly, in the EXPEED.

It's almost as if the somewhat imperfect high MP drives in the customers, but the great 1080 HD keeps them from complaining when they discover the old Kodak slrn problems are still there for very high MP.

Ah, you mean stills. That is a case again of viewing too close. Like all other lens aberrations, more MP lessens their effect in the final image (if not always very much at all) but at 100% they can look bad. Still there are other strategies. This is an extract from my reply to a pm from Thom (saves writing it again)

Yes, in fact, some people don't see them (aberrations) and most of it doesn't show in a large print.

There was a post I made on the Sony pixel choices, and was saying that the 54MP you'd get from a NEX7 sensor was too many. But after a year of a 32MP 5DIII and a 36MP D800, would it seem too many? One way to finally do for the residual MF market would be a 54MP D4X. If you look at the Hasselblad 50MP back, it has a QE of just 16% (the Phase 1 Plus is not much better at 22%) and a sensor area of 1800mm^2. This D4X would have a QE of 48% (3x) and a sensor area of 864mm^2 (0.48x) so it's actually going to have a half stop advantage over the Hassy in photon collection and SNR. To make it credible, they could match it with a small range of very expensive (MF prices) hyper primes

I would buy them.

slotted in above the current top end Nikkors. Make them diffraction limited from f/2.8 or so, with f/1.4 maximum apertures which is not technically infeasible if people are willing to pay for it, and you get a system that delivers everything MF does and more, with full compatibility with the rest of the Nikon line. I think that would probably sell at considerably more than $8000, if they could unequivocally demonstrate the IQ./

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ScottMac
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Re: By the way, and as an aside and new prediction
In reply to bobn2, Jan 8, 2012

bobn2 wrote:

In detail, you'll be right, because I doubt they'll go right down to 5D price. The $4k sounds about right to me, and if it has the specs rumoured and the DR that the Exmor chip will give it, plus a decent subset of the D4 video capability, it will outsell the 5DIII even at $1k more.

Correct

The DR is the killer, plus freedom from Canon pattern noise. There's a whole load of 5D and 5DII owners who'd pay an extra $1k just for that.
--

Exactly.

So, the D4, with Nikon's first ever 1080 HD in FX, and better than 12 MP, is here and is fantastic. But if next month brings a D800 type camera, whatever it's called, with high MP, at least 24, and 1080 HD like the D4, then Nikon will finally have what I've been harping about for two years: the best low light camera with 1080 HD and the best high MP with 1080 HD for a reasonable price. It will be $10,000 for the two of them, but that's okay.

Man, that was a tough two plus years wait, I guess it will be worth it. And yes, if that second FX comes next month I will probably buy it and the D4 and never post a negative thing about Nikon again. My work here will be done. (sarcasm noted)

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spbStan
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Re: why not get a D3X if you want so much MP?
In reply to vFunct, Jan 8, 2012

The way this guy approaches the topic makes me wonder if he really is doing paid work. I am not a pro photographer but in other similar contract creative work for 40 years(recording/production) the costs of doing business are factored into the price and I have never heard a pro complain about gear prices not being recovered by billings or how it prevents them from doing work because one manufacturer does not comply with every one of his wishes. Any photo gear was a lot cheaper than recording gear back in the day.

Why would anyone take on work they are not prepared for or have it as a specialty I am wondering. No one is that high on the list in every genre or style of photography but that is the normal business practice of small mom and pop photo studios doing weddings, HS photos and anything that walks in the door. All the arguing and bizarre excuses just does not sound like any pro of a higher esteem accomplishment in any creative industry I have ever been around.

The simple answer to the hand wringing is that the D4 was intended for an audience which thinks it is spot on and a gift from heaven. Obvious the high pixel count shooters have different priorities and are unhappy. So, it was not design for them. Get over it.

For those who need the things that no high count camera can do such as shooting in any conditions, clear 100 continuous 10fps RAW images from buffer to card, have a world beating AF system for action, oh, and shoot BC quality video if they get bored with HTML remote control of the whole camera....which probably has sprouted a whole new support industry of portable wireless internet remote control for the camera mounted in inaccessible or dangerous places.

If someone does not appreciate those features and dozens more, obviously it is not their camera. Don't buy it.

Personally, I do not need it but I want it and will reserve one next week when I am back in the US for a couple weeks. For me, not having 24 or 36mpx is the most compelling reason to get it, stunning performance with moderate sized files. I'll use in my home studio, events, club shooting, cityscapes, museum and ballet performances and just having a fun time with it.
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echelon2004
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Re: why not get a D3X if you want so much MP?
In reply to ScottMac, Jan 8, 2012

ScottMac wrote:

Karld70 wrote:

Video is as important to me as stills.

Still, they take the best stils camera in the world, add the most competent video of and dslr and you complain about two absolutely insignificant megapixels compared to totally irrelevant non existing canon 1dx?

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jjnik
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Re: By the way, and as an aside and new prediction
In reply to ScottMac, Jan 8, 2012

ScottMac wrote:

jjnik wrote:

Shame on me!

That's exactly right. And I think at this point it's pretty obvious your views, indeed your continuing vendetta, is in the minority here. Your obsession with me is bordering on trolling.

Responding to my posts with an alternate view is okay, using your imagined, negative distortion of my personality gets you nowhere. But you're right, you should give it up.

What did I imagine here? You're posting history shows that you felt the disasters did not delay any FX launches in 2011. My alternate view on that statement is that it's ignorant.

I have no beef with you, but your posts are obsessive, and I think you know that.

just been keeping it real - i've posted like 10% of what you have, so who is really obsessed with this topic?

Yeah, it would easy for you to rail against this post also, but why bother, everyone already knows what you are going to say.

I'm not railing on anything or anyone - just calling you out on all the BS and contradictions we've endured from you in the past 2 years or so (espeically in the last month). If you can't deal with that, then don't post your opinions as if they are facts and try to minimize anyone who believes otherwise.

You accused me of flip-flopping on another post when I have never done so - but now you appear to be totally doing that and it's OK for you. "There is no D4 or D800" and anyone who believes that is a foolish fanboy is the message you've obsessively posted anytime anyone had a different idea. But suddenly we get this:

"So, the D4, with Nikon's first ever 1080 HD in FX, and better than 12 MP, is here and is fantastic. But if next month brings a D800 type camera, whatever it's called, with high MP, at least 24, and 1080 HD like the D4, then Nikon will finally have what I've been harping about for two years: the best low light camera with 1080 HD and the best high MP with 1080 HD for a reasonable price. It will be $10,000 for the two of them, but that's okay."

Well, now you've been proven wrong on the existence of a D4 and, i suspect, will be proven wrong again on the D800 (time will tell - though you'll never admit it).

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Juergen
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Re: Congratulations Nikon, great 1080 HD FX video, but why only 16 MP?
In reply to ScottMac, Jan 8, 2012

ScottMac wrote:

rumoured D800 will exceed it for both, so will be the natural replacement for D3X owners.

No, it will not.
That will be a D4x.

I just don't see how Nikon will release a new FX with 36 MP and 1080 HD and charge half the price or lower than their current, sitting, high MP flagship with no video that sells for $8,000. This makes zero sense unless you believe the world economy has crashed and you need to up your MP, add 1080 HD, and charge half the price?

The usual ScottMacism ...
... comparing the D3/D4-line with the D700-line ...

You make a lot of proclamations, but I see no conclusion or prediction about what

... and you show with every new post you don't have a clue ...

By the way, and as an aside and new prediction:

Oh, you announce that your clueless heavy-trolling will continue in 2012??

I think Nikon made the D4 at 16 MP to distance itself from the coming "moderately priced high MP" because that camera may have only 21 MP, thus leaving the D3X, soon to become D4X, the high MP flagship. Of course, they could go 24 MP on the new cheaper camera and make the D3X 36, but I don't think they will go 24 and 36, more likely 21 and 24. Canon still does not have 24, nikon does not need to go 36 yet.

21 for the high-speed lien and 24 MP for the high-res line??
OMG ...

You don't have the slightest clue at all, 21 vs 24 MP as a distinction of resolution ...

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Juergen
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Re: By the way, and as an aside and new prediction
In reply to ScottMac, Jan 8, 2012

ScottMac wrote:

By the way, you have hit on in one of your posts why I predicted no new FX, and no 5DM2 spec and price from Nikon for all of 2010 and 2011. I knew the success of the 5DM2 was a game changer, I knew Nikon knew this and knew they had to respond. I also knew it would take them at least two full years to make the camera and it did.

... yes, sure ... (ScottMacism at its best ...)

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Juergen
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Re: By the way, and as an aside and new prediction
In reply to jjnik, Jan 8, 2012

jjnik wrote:

For someone who seems to think they are so smart with their ability to "predict" things, you continue to demonstrate an amazing level of ignorance (and insensitivity to the magnitude and impact of these disasters) in your posts.

On top of that ScottMac shows a complete lack of basic knowledge - see his other posts in this thread alone regarding megapixels ...

Please - you didn't KNOW anything about what Nikon would and would not do back then and you still don't KNOW anything. Yet you have dismissed anyone who SPECULATED otherwise.

It's called "ScottMacism" ...

Also, if you KNEW it would take them at least 2 full years to make a camera to "respond" to the 5D2, then why did you continue to maintain that there was no D4 until it was announced and you continue to maintain there will be no D800 (you also said that you felt that Nikon was not even working on anything in FX a few times in the last several months)? BTW, I think that Nikon has not yet responded to the 5D2 as the D4 is not positioned as a 5D2 competitor, yet you now seem to think they have?

Only the ScottMacs would think so ...

And after obsessively railing on Nikon because they did not make the moderately priced, High MP, 1080P camera you wanted and saying that the D4 spec did not interest you as it it was too low in MP and too expensive:

If his level of income is the same as his level of knowledge ...

In addition, you have said that there is no D800 coming, but you don’t respond to posts like these that support the info that NR has thrown out there on a possible D800:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1021&message=40263357

Oh, he will post here how he was right ...
... it's called "ScottMacism" ...

To me you’ve demonstrated you have zero credibility on this stuff. I know I had

Zero?
Far below zero ...

said I would not respond to your continued trolling but your arrogance pulled me back in 1 more time. Shame on me!

Shame on me, too!

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