M10 soon ?

Started Jan 6, 2012 | Discussions
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bepicture New Member • Posts: 4
M10 soon ?

If Kodak company fall in bankrupty, Leica needs a new supplier, very soon. Perhaps they have anticipated it. So, if i am not wrong, M10 is mandatory for them !

JeffS7444 Regular Member • Posts: 285
Re: M10 soon ?

Kodak sold that business (Now known as Truesense Imaging) in Nov 2011:

http://www.kodak.com/ek/US/en/Kodak_Sells_Image_Senor_Business_to_Platinum_Equity.htm

CFynn Veteran Member • Posts: 5,224
Re: M10 soon ?

JeffS7444 wrote:

Kodak sold that business (Now known as Truesense Imaging) in Nov 2011:

http://www.kodak.com/ek/US/en/Kodak_Sells_Image_Senor_Business_to_Platinum_Equity.htm

So now one merger & acquisition company has a big stake in Leica and another owns their sensor supplier. If the two get together they could have Leica by the balls.

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Anadrol Regular Member • Posts: 423
Re: M10 soon ?

I would have thought than the M10 will have the new CCD from Kodak,
but recently Leica stated that CMOS is the future.

Stating that CMOS is the future and then putting in a CCD would be weird.

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petertan1959 Regular Member • Posts: 189
Re: M10 soon ?

Anadrol wrote:

I would have thought than the M10 will have the new CCD from Kodak,
but recently Leica stated that CMOS is the future.

ha ha ha

ALL major dslr makers are using CMOS sensors for SEVERAL YEARS now.Nikon d70 & Canon 1d are the last models that have ccd sensors. not sure about this but the point is - it was several years ago!in diigital years those are in prehistoric times.

Leica has been using CCD on M9 and I believe some of you are saying this results in "better" images because CCD is better than CMOS.

So now Leica is admitting that their technology is behind everyone else???

JamieTux Veteran Member • Posts: 3,900
Re: M10 soon ?

its different Peter, not better or worse or are you now saying that dslr cameras automatically have better image quality than digital medium format backs?
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petertan1959 Regular Member • Posts: 189
Re: M10 soon ?

JamieTux wrote:

its different Peter, not better or worse or are you now saying that dslr cameras automatically have better image quality than digital medium format backs?
--

if you are going to compare then compare oranges to oranges and apples to apples.

if you are going to compare ff leica then compare it to ff nikon and ff canon.

dslr have several classes too you know.

since leica said that CMOS is the future logic would dictate that since canon, nikon, sony, panasonic, fujifilm, etc are using CMOS then using simple reasoning it also means that canon, nikon, sony, panasonic, fujifilm are the FUTURE.

and since the FUTURE is here because they use CMOS then logic again dictates that Leica is the PAST?

in laptop terms, if all other laptops brands are using i7 core and your brand is still using c2d then which laptop is behind in technology?

maybe some of you would say the c2d still runs photoshop!

but when you compare prices, the c2d costs 3x the i7 laptop???

JamieTux Veteran Member • Posts: 3,900
Re: M10 soon ?

petertan1959 wrote:

JamieTux wrote:

its different Peter, not better or worse or are you now saying that dslr cameras automatically have better image quality than digital medium format backs?
--

if you are going to compare then compare oranges to oranges and apples to apples.

I am, you said that CMOS was better and the future, many have stated that the Leica chip is more like a scaled down MF sensor than most other 35mm format chips.

Why are the cameras where cost is less of an issue all still using CCD? I think that's a valid question back to you.

if you are going to compare ff leica then compare it to ff nikon and ff canon.

Because they both use cmos?

There are advantages to both approaches - this has been debated thousands of times or more on the internet - here's a fairly unbiased page (from a company that makes both types of sensor) with summarries and further links
http://www.teledynedalsa.com/corp/markets/ccd_vs_cmos.aspx

dslr have several classes too you know.

Yep - I am aware of that

since leica said that CMOS is the future logic would dictate that since canon, nikon, sony, panasonic, fujifilm, etc are using CMOS then using simple reasoning it also means that canon, nikon, sony, panasonic, fujifilm are the FUTURE.

That is some weird logic - does it also make my 90s webcam the future as it's CMOS? Rather than pick one type of sensor I think that they are all going with the right technology for them. All of them are dependent on live view and CMOS seems to have an advantage there at the moment (probably lower power and as a consequence less heat to dissipate too) - so CMOS straight away would be the winner for that reason.

and since the FUTURE is here because they use CMOS then logic again dictates that Leica is the PAST?

By your flawed logic, yes - to anyone that uses them (and medium format) no - it's just not that simple - get the tool that works for what YOU want to do - but the d700 gave me no practical benefit compared to the M9 which is why I switched.

in laptop terms, if all other laptops brands are using i7 core and your brand is still using c2d then which laptop is behind in technology?

The one using the chip that has been REPLACED by the SAME manufacturer in the SAME product line will be a better processor. That's a completely different scenario.

maybe some of you would say the c2d still runs photoshop!

Maybe some would - I am also sure that EVERYONE would agree that in general the i7 will be a better processor, which is another reason that your logic doesn't make sense.

but when you compare prices, the c2d costs 3x the i7 laptop???

How's that relevant?

You are missing the whole point - there is not a perfect sensor or a perfect camera, at any cost.

If CCDs are so old then why are NASA using them in launches this year?

http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=2709&gpcid=0900688a80ff4288&ignoreLocale=true&pq-locale=en_US&_requestid=1014

http://www.teledynedalsa.com/corp/news/news.aspx?itemID=356

You are also missing other important elements like colour filter arrays, micro lenses (and angles), base ISO sensitivity, what point information is digitised, filters (anti alias, IR, UV, etc) that all have an impact on the ultimate output.

Can you please just accept that you have an opinion and my opinion is different, and that other people's opinions, needs and wants are different to yours?

My point in our exchanges has always been that you need to look at what is best for a situation or range of situations - if you look in isolation you can make anything appear to be 'the best' and if it was ALL about absolute resolution and dynamic range then we'd all be shooting large format (8x10 or bigger) black and white sheet film.

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petertan1959 Regular Member • Posts: 189
Re: M10 soon ?

Can you please just accept that you have an opinion and my opinion is different, and that other people's opinions, needs and wants are different to yours?

then why are you arguing against my points? based on your suggestion - why not ACCEPT it?

that is what i like about leica m9 users. at first they say that the m9 is a "superior: piece of machinery that even the best canon or nikon cannot come close to its imagery.

when facts are presented - in this case an admission from Leica itself - that CMOS is the future, they would still not accept it.

they now use other criteria that are superfluous like

colour filter arrays, micro lenses (and angles), base ISO sensitivity, what point information is digitised, filters (anti alias, IR, UV, etc) that all have an impact on the ultimate output

when sensors are discussed they would say that lens are better.
when lens are discussed they would say that CCD sensors are better.

when AF systems are discussed they would say Manual Focus gives the "artist" better control on how to capture the "moment"

they always find a way to bring the conversion into something intangible so that facts are not the basis of a comparison to show the silliness of their arguments.

BS

MilSooper Senior Member • Posts: 1,869
Re: M10 soon ?

Kodak no longer owns the Sensor Company so if it goes bankrupt it would be academic to Leica. They can still get the sensor they want.

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JamieTux Veteran Member • Posts: 3,900
Re: M10 soon ?

petertan1959 wrote:

Can you please just accept that you have an opinion and my opinion is different, and that other people's opinions, needs and wants are different to yours?

then why are you arguing against my points? based on your suggestion - why not ACCEPT it?

Because you are stating your opinions as fact and you are ignoring evidence and information that shows that they are opinions.

that is what i like about leica m9 users. at first they say that the m9 is a "superior: piece of machinery that even the best canon or nikon cannot come close to its imagery.

I've not said that or seen anyone else say that.

when facts are presented - in this case an admission from Leica itself - that CMOS is the future, they would still not accept it.

If Leica have said that a future camera will be CMOS based then the fact is that a future camera will be CMOS based, it does not change the quality of the m9 sensor or make CMOS better for all applications.

Did you read any of the links that I sent?

they now use other criteria that are superfluous like

colour filter arrays, micro lenses (and angles), base ISO sensitivity, what point information is digitised, filters (anti alias, IR, UV, etc) that all have an impact on the ultimate output

I am glad that you dismiss them as superfluous, i think it shows the level of understanding that you have.

when sensors are discussed they would say that lens are better.
when lens are discussed they would say that CCD sensors are better.

when AF systems are discussed they would say Manual Focus gives the "artist" better control on how to capture the "moment"

I think that modern AF is incredibly good at focussing quickly and tracking movement on the high end Nikons and Canons. I am sure that if you could magically change the m9 to have the same kind of AF coverage, speed and sophistication without adding cost, weight, complexity or bulk then I would guess that most users here would be OK with that.

I might be wrong but I think people are probably trying to explain range finders to you, and the ability to see more than the lens so that you can focus and compose and wait for your subject to enter the frame.

Sorry to sound like a stuck record but this is a better way of working for some people and some situations, no camera is perfect for every situation.

they always find a way to bring the conversion into something intangible so that facts are not the basis of a comparison to show the silliness of their arguments.

And you seem to ignore most of the replies that you get and instead only respond to the pieces that you feel prove your point without trying to further your understanding.

BS

Which point is BS? That I don't think CMOS technology gives you a better image in all situations or the fact that I've given examples of NASA still buying CCDs for new missions or the fact that there is more to a sensor than just the silicon?

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MrLaki Senior Member • Posts: 1,094
Re: M10 soon ?

petertan1959 wrote:

Can you please just accept that you have an opinion and my opinion is different, and that other people's opinions, needs and wants are different to yours?

then why are you arguing against my points? based on your suggestion - why not ACCEPT it?

because noone accepts that pseudo-knoledge you're presenting here, without being able to proof any of your absurd theories.
lots of people tried to educate you a little bit, but you're very resistant.

that is what i like about leica m9 users. at first they say that the m9 is a "superior: piece of machinery that even the best canon or nikon cannot come close to its imagery.

it's the other way around, people like you come to this forum and say all leica users are morons and are using old technology, aren't able to take action shots etc.

when facts are presented - in this case an admission from Leica itself - that CMOS is the future, they would still not accept it.

they now use other criteria that are superfluous like

why don't you simply give a proof of what you're talking and I mean a proof with your own photos! because even in you flickr stream I see nothing which justifies your big words. and now tell us again, those are just photos for discussions and your questions...if you have that much questions about photography then please go to some beginner forum.

colour filter arrays, micro lenses (and angles), base ISO sensitivity, what point information is digitised, filters (anti alias, IR, UV, etc) that all have an impact on the ultimate output

when sensors are discussed they would say that lens are better.
when lens are discussed they would say that CCD sensors are better.

when AF systems are discussed they would say Manual Focus gives the "artist" better control on how to capture the "moment"

and again, give proof, I bet anything that you wouldn't be able to distinguish between the sensors or cameras which were used on any photo.

they always find a way to bring the conversion into something intangible so that facts are not the basis of a comparison to show the silliness of their arguments.

look into the mirror and try to think, it won't hurt.

BS

well thats finally true, all you type is digital garbage and bs.

after all I agree that the best thing to do is just ignore the digital garbage you produce.

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cheers
laki

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petertan1959 Regular Member • Posts: 189
Re: M10 soon ?

/ I bet anything that you wouldn't be able to distinguish between the sensors or cameras which were used on any photo./

so let me step back a bit and digest that small piece of sentence....

what you are trying to say is that my nex 3 will produce the same great photos from your m9? is that what you want to convey?

WOW you just admitted that you just wasted $10k to take pictures of equal quality to my Nex3!

by the way laki try to look at your galleries 1st before being a critic to others.

your race car set are BLURRY

your street scene (with the street musicians) has no story? everyone in the picture is looking this way & that. there is no central story to the picture.

picture L1000151 with the lady walking and wheelchair with the football in the air? nothing is sharp! what is your central theme there?

picture L1000187 with the guy smoking reading the newspaper. the chairs are distrcting. the top sign banner was cropped and the viewer eyes are drawn to this cropped letters.there is the blurry guy sitting across the street that is also a distraction.

picture L1000243 church scene.wrong use of fisheye/uw lens. the angle is "weird". you want the uw view to converge on the central theme. what is the central theme? the lighted window?there is another windows on the upper right that is also a distraction.

MrLaki Senior Member • Posts: 1,094
Re: M10 soon ?

petertan1959 wrote:

/ I bet anything that you wouldn't be able to distinguish between the sensors or cameras which were used on any photo./

so let me step back a bit and digest that small piece of sentence....

what you are trying to say is that my nex 3 will produce the same great photos from your m9? is that what you want to convey?

WOW you just admitted that you just wasted $10k to take pictures of equal quality to my Nex3!

by the way laki try to look at your galleries 1st before being a critic to others.

your race car set are BLURRY

your street scene (with the street musicians) has no story? everyone in the picture is looking this way & that. there is no central story to the picture.

picture L1000151 with the lady walking and wheelchair with the football in the air? nothing is sharp! what is your central theme there?

picture L1000187 with the guy smoking reading the newspaper. the chairs are distrcting. the top sign banner was cropped and the viewer eyes are drawn to this cropped letters.there is the blurry guy sitting across the street that is also a distraction.

picture L1000243 church scene.wrong use of fisheye/uw lens. the angle is "weird". you want the uw view to converge on the central theme. what is the central theme? the lighted window?there is another windows on the upper right that is also a distraction.

LOL, thanks for the laugh.

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cheers
laki

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http://www.konstantinou.com

Irakly Shanidze
Irakly Shanidze Veteran Member • Posts: 4,501
Re: M10 soon ?

you are profoundly insightful
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stealth3kpl Contributing Member • Posts: 758
Re: M10 soon ?

This is a cracking shot of a motor cyclist. Is this with the Nex3 or your Alpha? What lens were you using?
Pete

petertan1959 wrote:

to my Nex3!*

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stealth3kpl Contributing Member • Posts: 758
Re: M10 soon ?

Duh, sorry, it's called a sony alpha nex3. I'm not up with digital cameras. What lens was used? Nice work.
Pete

stealth3kpl wrote:

This is a cracking shot of a motor cyclist. Is this with the Nex3 or your Alpha? What lens were you using?
Pete

petertan1959 wrote:

to my Nex3!*

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Irakly Shanidze
Irakly Shanidze Veteran Member • Posts: 4,501
Re: M10 soon ?

Leica stated that CMOS was the future, not the present. At the time of stating, CMOS technology was not convincing enough in terms of possible image quality to warrant using in in the M9. Things are developing fast, though.

Anadrol wrote:

I would have thought than the M10 will have the new CCD from Kodak,
but recently Leica stated that CMOS is the future.

Stating that CMOS is the future and then putting in a CCD would be weird.

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jase
jase Contributing Member • Posts: 623
Re: M10 soon ?

Irakly Shanidze wrote:

Leica stated that CMOS was the future, not the present. At the time of stating, CMOS technology was not convincing enough in terms of possible image quality to warrant using in in the M9. Things are developing fast, though.

Irakly Shanidze

http://www.shanidze.com/en

That or Leica couldn't find anyone that would make one for them at a price they were willing to pay at the time the M9 was developed.

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jase

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MoreorLess Veteran Member • Posts: 3,854
The future = mirrorless?

Irakly Shanidze wrote:

Leica stated that CMOS was the future, not the present. At the time of stating, CMOS technology was not convincing enough in terms of possible image quality to warrant using in in the M9. Things are developing fast, though.

I wouldnt be supprized if "the future" in this case ment Leica's rumoured mirrorless system, possible with Panasonic providing the sensor?

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