Say it Isn't So!!!!

Started Jan 4, 2012 | Discussions
jeff hladun
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Re: poor action shots
In reply to petertan1959, Jan 8, 2012

Petertan, I added this image to show you how unnecessary autofocus is to freeze motion blur. For that matter, how image stabilization isn't needed either. I forgot to point out that this was shot on film at ASA400. There is no reason either the M8 or M9 couldn't have accomplished this shot, and without the grain.

By setting my focus beforehand, I was able to concentrate on the distance just before, and just after the jump-fence. Manual focus lenses with the Depth-of-Field markings makes this easy to do. I'm not sure about lenses for Nikon, but my Canon L-series prime lenses have only a rudimentary DoF marking system, and I doubt they could have given me the same amount of information that my rangefinder markings do.

This photograph, also shot on film, demonstrates more dramatically the importance of the DoF markings, and the benefit of framing with an optical viewfinder. Had I used a DSLR with the speediest autofocus system, I probably would have focused on the woman's face, but by doing so it is doubtful the man in the background would have been as sharp. I knew beforehand where the focus range lay, and had accounted for the woman being near the front-focus limit, and the man near the rear limit. The focus range had been pre-set long before this moment occurred, and I was confident in the focus range when I came upon this. That could not have been done without the lens' focus range information, and couldn't have been done with my Canon L lenses on my 5D. Had I auto-focused on the woman's face, I would have wasted one-third of the focal range in front of her, sacrificing some rear of her.

Had I used a DSLR for this shot, the time it would have taken to search for the proper composition would have been longer than the time taken with an optical viewfinder. I admit it is just fractions of a second, but in this case, that amount of time would have missed the shot. The ability to see outside of the framelines of a rangefinder is one of those things non-rangefinder users have difficulty grasping, and even owners of the system often don't realize the advantage. I believe however, that those who are passionate about the system seem to get it.

petertan1959 wrote:

wow another b/w......hmmmmmm

where is the color version????
probably very grainy???
to freeze your shot you had to use high iso? in daylight???

hence you converted to b/w to hide the grains?

hmmmmm

the more you shot pictures from your Leica the more you are nadding nails to the leica coffin.

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CFynn
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Re: I wonder
In reply to starwolfy, Jan 8, 2012

starwolfy wrote:

  • Best built bodies ever

Not "ever" - I think some of Leica's older bodies were better built and also that other manufactures have, in the past, made cameras of equal build quality.

  • C

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stevielee
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Re: I wonder
In reply to starwolfy, Jan 8, 2012

starwolfy wrote:

When I read your analysis, I think you should send your CV to Leica and propose to work for them as a Strategy consultant.

lol

Does lol have some special meaning to you? What is it supposed to be coveying. What am I missing with this cryptic shorthand verbiage? Is it a secret message about some kind of a emotion, or feeling, or spastic reaction?

Maybe most of the crowd are running after new bodies, with new features, new functionalities, new everything in one package...but I think Leica's core market is different. That is why it is a niche.

You mean....when you refer to "the crowd" who you assert: are "running after new bodies" -- the 99.9% of the rest of the photographic world -- outside of a tiny Leica "niche"?

Here is what a niche market is:

By definition a business that focuses on a niche market is addressing a need for a product or service that is not being addressed by mainstream providers.

Okay! So this could also refer to FujiFilms X100, and new X1 Pro as well. No one (not even Leica) is providing a state-of-the-art, high quality, compact camera, and also doing so at an AFFORDABLE, and reasonable price. It would seem to me that FujiFilm is filling this "need" better than any of the other "niche" , or "mainstream providers"

What adresses Leica that other systems do not?

  • Best built bodies ever

Highly subjective assessment. Nikon's new D4 is built like a brinks truck. You can't any better "built" that than. Granted: it's not exactly a small camera, but extremely weel built it certainly is. This is also true of FujiFilm's X100 and upcoming X1 Pro. Built to last as long as any other "niche" camera out on the market right now - including a Red Dot Branded one.

  • Native Leica M lenses to Leica M bodies coupling

The RD1 also has a Native M-Mount as well (the very first one yoto ever offer one in the digital age before Leica did. And whether it is native, or adaptive, being able to utilize an M-series Lens to a more advance and affordable camera is like having your cake and eating it to - as will probably be the case with the X1 Pro.

  • Huge and bright OVF

But still without the more popular and functional option of an EVF that wouldn't have killed Leica to include as an "option" in their supposedly flagship 8K M9.

  • High simplicity of use

  • Huge amount and best quality lenses thx to more than 100 years of history

  • Strong linearity of use and operability of their bodies (you use a M7 like you use a M9 and so on)

  • Film camera like shooting style even with digital bodies

As the Fuki X100 has, but imperilment so much better than Leica's. And Fuji even included an internal 3-stop ND filter to boot.

  • Really small, light, discreet and high quality system overall

Again, as is the X100, and new X1 Pro, except that they are both even smaller, lighter, and of a far better value-to-performance and features equation.

Sure, talking specs M bodies are not the best. But I think if one was running after Specs, he won't buy a Leica at all...but prefer a Canikon FF DSLR instead.

But didn't you just put up a technical "spec" list for the Leica above? Which it is? Either the "specs" of a cam don't matter, or they (in actuality) do?

Just have a look at this forum and the threads it contains. Leica users rarelly open thread to talk specs...cuz it is not what matters for them. They prefer to open thread to post pictures and talk about images. That is the reason people who post pictures here, even if it was not taken with a Leica body, are generally really welcomed.

And just look at this particular thread that will probably one of the very first to top the maximum 150 post limit in over a year and a half in these "Leica talk" forums. Seems like it just might have struck a very deep seeded cord with Leica owners and user and those of us that have greaty admired Leica from the film days and wish that they would get shake their overwrought stodgy "premium" act altogether and put out full "modern" featured, more reasonably priced camera bodies in the coming years. They'd continue to be able to sell ton's of their peerless optics at a hefty mark-up and still make boatloads of money, all the while offer a more reasonably priced camera body that would/could encourage more folks to buy a Leica instead of a Fuji, or whoever else might step into the breach to meet the demand for higher quality, AFFORDABLE compact cameras.

Only people like you come here and open thread to explain how bad Leica M bodies specs are comparing to other competitors. As you do not own a Leica body anymore, why worry? We are grown enough to decide by our own what to buy and continue the adventure with Leica or not.

And if you actually looked at the title of this forum: it is aptly and simply called Leica Talk , not Leica bodies fan talk, or Leicaphiles only talk, so you can give it a rest with trying to corner and control what this, or any other Forum on DPReview is supposed to "be about". I have probably invest in, and spent more overall $$$ in Leica branded equipment than you have , or will in your entire life. And if I use my criterion of $$$ spent on Leica equipment throught the years as a qualifier to whom exactly should be able to post here , you might just want to move onto another more lightweight forum of website for over-enthusiastic "premium" photographic wanna be's.

You don't like, or cozy up to my opinions, ot points of view? Fine! then move the heck on and let the rest of us have at it....

Regardless, be well, and keep on shooting - whatever tool you may end up using.

Starwolfy
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NX10 + legacy lenses on:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/51235083@N05/

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starwolfy
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Re: I wonder
In reply to stevielee, Jan 9, 2012

The biggest gotcha with you is that:

1) you speak too much

2) you judge people on no real basis

You said I do not know how to use my camera. Well, I had a look at your gallery, then checked the few pics I posted on Dpreview...I am sorry but (in fact no I am not sorry) but I think before concentrating on what camera has better specs you should spend your time out and try harder taking pictures.

Then, You said you paid more money for Leica that I will ever do in my life.

I especially like this second point because, first, you do not know me nor know how much I earn (but you are the first medium I meet).

Second, it seems you care for money too much with you word AFFORDABLE coming at every message.

And even funnier how you are now trying to make fun of me with your BIGGER/BETTER amount of $$$ you spent for Leica. This is finally the good example that you are full of non-sense.

Even your way of replying to my messages: taking each sentences and provide a reply to each of them...only teenagers and nerds do like this frankly.

Yes, I talked about teenagers because since the start, talking with you is like having a conversation with a 12 years old little boy: My camera is better than you! No it's mine! No it's mine! No no no it's mine!

about "lol", since you seem used to behave on forum like a nerd, I guess it won't be a problem for you to find its meaning.

How pathetic T.T (didn't know this one?: T.T)

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stealth3kpl
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Re: petertan1959
In reply to JamieTux, Jan 9, 2012

JamieTux wrote:

Please point out to us poor deluded fools a sensor that gives better results at base iso outside of a medium format back - and then show us how to make a 3 lens kit that are good enough to make most use of the sensor for under 2 kgs.

James

I agree. This why I dumped my D700 and went to Leica film bodies (not being able to afford the M9).

JamieTux wrote:

At creating a constant drum beat indefinitely or playing something with an emotional connection that you actually want to listen to? Of course the best is larry mullen jr.

I don't agree. Neil Peart (and this kid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYzXFf58kiU&feature=related )

Pete
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Artichoke
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fine examples of action photography, Jeff (5 pics from me & 1 from a master)
In reply to jeff hladun, Jan 9, 2012

in the grand tradition of rangefinder photography

a Leica camera (in the hands of Robert Capa) captured perhaps the greatest war action photograph ever taken

I prefer using a rangefinder for action work, though I admit I don't do this as often as I should
here are a few action shots from my Leica captures taken with the M8 & M9

stopping down a bit as I had lots of light & the surrounding elements were critical to the success of this image

opened the lens up for this one yet still got the eye in focus

much less light available here, taken opened up with a 75 Summilux, my favorite lens for this kind of work

I find my Leica M9 produces fine high ISO color in low light circumstances

most Leica shooters prefer BW to color for many of our photographs, because BW adds drama & emphasizes composition

shooting information & larger versions of these can be found in my Leica M galleries on pbase here ------> http://www.pbase.com/artichoke/m8&page=60

http://www.pbase.com/artichoke/m8&page=91 and many more, though you will have to look about a bit
folks often come to this forum with opinions based on limited experience
shooting a rangefinder does take a bit of practice

freeing oneself from the tyranny of through the lens automated cameras does require some effort, but well worth the investment

I truly hope that someone (Fujifilm could do it) develops a less expensive true RF system as this kind of photography has many advantages & in particular for action work

there is nothing like being able to see beyond the capture frame to help with action photography
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"Avoid making a commotion, just as you wouldn’t stir up the water before fishing. Don’t use a flash out of respect for the natural lighting, even when there isn’t any. If these rules aren’t followed, the photographer becomes unbearably obtrusive" -- attributed to HCB

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petertan1959
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Re: fine examples of action photography, Jeff (5 pics from me & 1 from a master)
In reply to Artichoke, Jan 9, 2012

Robert Capa?
Isn't he dead for more than half a century?

Maybe the Leica that he was using then is "state of the art" but after 50 years other brands have left the leica brand in the dust.

the photos that you posted above are grainy even in b/w!

no magazine would buy it now when placed side by side with a shot from a nikon or canon!

when you are talking of action photography, the subject in focus should be SHARP with other parts of the image less sharp or even blurry depending on the style.

if the face of your subject is not even clear then that is a lousy action shot.

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Artichoke
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put up or shut up, Peter
In reply to petertan1959, Jan 9, 2012

petertan1959 wrote:

so far your posts suggest you have little experience & in reviewing your only offerings on the web, the closest to action photography you have attempted is the slobber about to happen from this dog

the photos that you posted above are grainy even in b/w!

your silly comments about grain and BW demonstrate your naivety

grain is an important element of BW photography & folks even shell out money to put grain into their monotone photographs through software

as I noted in my post, many folks prefer BW photography, which has many advantages over color

no magazine would buy it now when placed side by side with a shot from a nikon or canon!

dubious statement
both the M8 and M9 are accepted by Getty and all other major image houses

as a percentage of users, I'd venture to guess that Leica is in the hands of more pros and finds its way into more magazines than Canon or Nikon
certainly there is no lack of top tier pros shooting Leica Ms

when you are talking of action photography, the subject in focus should be SHARP with other parts of the image less sharp or even blurry depending on the style.

if the face of your subject is not even clear then that is a lousy action shot.

we are not impressed with your photographic erudition

if you were to look closely at the image of the young marching girl, leaping in the air mind you, you would see eyelashes in focus
rangefinders rock for action if you know what you are doing
some folks can't even get a still dog's face in focus using auto assist

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"Avoid making a commotion, just as you wouldn’t stir up the water before fishing. Don’t use a flash out of respect for the natural lighting, even when there isn’t any. If these rules aren’t followed, the photographer becomes unbearably obtrusive" -- attributed to HCB

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petertan1959
Regular MemberPosts: 189
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Re: put up or shut up, Peter
In reply to Artichoke, Jan 9, 2012

Artichoke wrote:

petertan1959 wrote:

so far your posts suggest you have little experience & in reviewing your only offerings on the web, the closest to action photography you have attempted is the slobber about to happen from this dog

the example above was for a 1st sample shot using a canon fl 58 1.2 @1.2! you ever held a 1.2 lens? the amount of clear focus gap is less than 2-3 cm!

the photos that you posted above are grainy even in b/w!

your silly comments about grain and BW demonstrate your naivety

grain is an important element of BW photography & folks even shell out money to put grain into their monotone photographs through software

grain when taken INTENTIONALLY using film is a fine art form. But when present due to lack of ISO capability of the camera is a negative sign for the camera.

as I noted in my post, many folks prefer BW photography, which has many advantages over color

wow that is an excuse if i ever heard one! please go buy yourself a copy of Time, Newsweek TODAY and see how many BW covers are there?

no magazine would buy it now when placed side by side with a shot from a nikon or canon!

dubious statement
both the M8 and M9 are accepted by Getty and all other major image houses

as a percentage of users, I'd venture to guess that Leica is in the hands of more pros and finds its way into more magazines than Canon or Nikon

Really? how can that be if 90% of the DSLR market are covered by canon,nikon,sony? the other 10% are divided into the other japanese makers sicne Kodak has just gone belly up. you mean to say that with a market share of less than 1% has the capability to beat the canon,nikon,sony share? WOW

certainly there is no lack of top tier pros shooting Leica Ms

the only one you mentioned in your post is unfortunately Dead?

when you are talking of action photography, the subject in focus should be SHARP with other parts of the image less sharp or even blurry depending on the style.

if the face of your subject is not even clear then that is a lousy action shot.

we are not impressed with your photographic erudition

if you were to look closely at the image of the young marching girl, leaping in the air mind you, you would see eyelashes in focus
rangefinders rock for action if you know what you are doing
some folks can't even get a still dog's face in focus using auto assist

i usually post here when i have some questions with my shots hence i post them as example with some settings that i may have with that shot. ha ha the difference with your gallery is that these are your BEST SHOTS!

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Archiver
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Re: put up or shut up, Peter
In reply to petertan1959, Jan 9, 2012

petertan1959 wrote:

Artichoke wrote:

petertan1959 wrote:

so far your posts suggest you have little experience & in reviewing your only offerings on the web, the closest to action photography you have attempted is the slobber about to happen from this dog

the example above was for a 1st sample shot using a canon fl 58 1.2 @1.2! you ever held a 1.2 lens? the amount of clear focus gap is less than 2-3 cm!

Does anyone else find it mildly ironic that Peter has been railing wildly against manual focus, and yet the majority of his photographs are taken with a Sony NEX and manual focus lenses?
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