Say it Isn't So!!!!

Started Jan 4, 2012 | Discussions
stevielee
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Say it Isn't So!!!!
Jan 4, 2012

Don't look now, but the Leica may just have to contend with another digital interchangeable "rangefinder" camera that will also most likely accept M-Mount lenses for less than 2K US$.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=40224360

How will the Red Dot Company respond if the rumors are true and FujiFilm releases a camera that trumps the M9 every which way to sunday for less than 1/3 it's price?

Leica just may have their first, direct competitor to it's M series rangefinders. Up until now, they have gotten away with charging 7-8K for a camera that used to be the only real digital rangefinder game in town...But it looks like the gameboard are about to radically change for Leica when Fuji announces it new X1 Pro "mirrorless" digital rangefinder.

Let the new Fuji M-Mount games begin.....

Leica X1
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MrLaki
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Re: Say it Isn't So!!!!
In reply to stevielee, Jan 4, 2012

stevielee wrote:

How will the Red Dot Company respond if the rumors are true and FujiFilm releases a camera that trumps the M9 every which way to sunday for less than 1/3 it's price?

wow, seems like you know more than you tell us...

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stevielee
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Re: Say it Isn't So!!!!
In reply to MrLaki, Jan 4, 2012

MrLaki wrote:

stevielee wrote:

How will the Red Dot Company respond if the rumors are true and FujiFilm releases a camera that trumps the M9 every which way to sunday for less than 1/3 it's price?

wow, seems like you know more than you tell us...

Let's just say that I've had a sneak peek at the what will most likely become the new King of the mirrorless "rangefinder" approximate hill.

I really do hope that Leica has something up their M series sleeve and announced a new and greatly improved M9 soon. Otherwise, it's going to get mighty quiet for Leica Solms as far as sales go for their current 7-8K digital rangefinder.

A bit of competition is good thing...no?

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MrLaki
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Re: Say it Isn't So!!!!
In reply to stevielee, Jan 4, 2012

stevielee wrote:

Let's just say that I've had a sneak peek at the what will most likely become the new King of the mirrorless "rangefinder" approximate hill.

ok, then some more Info would be nice

I really do hope that Leica has something up their M series sleeve and announced a new and greatly improved M9 soon. Otherwise, it's going to get mighty quiet for Leica Solms as far as sales go for their current 7-8K digital rangefinder.

well Leica has always been sold at a premium price, so I doubt that this will change, except if they introduce a "cheaper" line to company the M-Models.

A bit of competition is good thing...no?

competition is for sure always good and might bring out more innovation

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DavidGBK
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Re: Say it Isn't So!!!!
In reply to stevielee, Jan 4, 2012

On the same thread you extracted this from someone has reported that this is a mock up from Flickr.

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stevielee
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Re: Say it Isn't So!!!!
In reply to DavidGBK, Jan 5, 2012

DavidGBK wrote:

On the same thread you extracted this from someone has reported that this is a mock up from Flickr.

No, I was just commented on something that I has been already tipped off to over a week ago. The mock-up that appeared in the Fujifilm forum was just put out into the wild earlier today.

And It may well be a bit premature for anyone (including myself) to definitively say that this new, upcoming mirror-less "rangefinder" type of camera from FujiFilm will see Leica scrambling for a competitive answer, -- but it's almost certain that 2012 is going to be a interesting and highly competitive year for digital imaging innovations in the higher-end, high IQ, compact sub-traditional DSLR area. And it would also seem that Fuji has been positioning itself perfectly (starting with the X100) to become THE dominant player of this popular and fast growing segment of the market.

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starwolfy
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Re: Say it Isn't So!!!!
In reply to stevielee, Jan 5, 2012

At the rumored price point that would be a niche market.

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sunhorse
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Is it M-mount?
In reply to stevielee, Jan 5, 2012

I didn't see anything to indicate it would have an M mount. Engadget also noted that it probably won't be FF. So, not an M9 competitor if that is the case.

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Artichoke
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not a competitor, but
In reply to sunhorse, Jan 5, 2012

sunhorse wrote:

I didn't see anything to indicate it would have an M mount. Engadget also noted that it probably won't be FF. So, not an M9 competitor if that is the case.

Fujifilm is a very innovative company that understands light capture
should be interesting to see what this pretty body will be packing

a bit OT, but the thread referenced by the OP has contributions that put down Leica users, with Dan Nikon raising his level of vituperative-osity
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Irakly Shanidze
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Re: Say it Isn't So!!!!
In reply to stevielee, Jan 5, 2012

image quality of fuji optics was the reason why i decided against converting to hasselblad h system when it came out. nothing seems to have changed since then.
as to the body, where is the optical rangefinder?
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sunhorse
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Re: not a competitor, but
In reply to Artichoke, Jan 5, 2012

Artichoke wrote:

sunhorse wrote:

I didn't see anything to indicate it would have an M mount. Engadget also noted that it probably won't be FF. So, not an M9 competitor if that is the case.

Fujifilm is a very innovative company that understands light capture
should be interesting to see what this pretty body will be packing

Yes, I agree that this it would be very interesting to see what Fuji does. I would buy one if it has really good IQ.

a bit OT, but the thread referenced by the OP has contributions that put down Leica users, with Dan Nikon raising his level of vituperative-osity

Unfortunate. I saw that thread and the earlier thread in the Leica forum. I usually avoid jumping into these threads. I really don't care what someone thinks of my gear choices or how much I spend on them. Exception is my wife

I see the talent in this forum, as well as the polite discourse we have had for years before DN and his ilk decided to go on the attack. Constructive criticism is good but the spite is completely unnecessary, but also revealing.

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harold1968
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It isn't so
In reply to stevielee, Jan 5, 2012

If Fuji made a brass and magnesium camera with a true RF mechanism and a lens range of Leica quality I would be interested, but I doubt it.
And if they did, it wouldn't be far off the Leica price anyway.

I expect they will come out with an APS-C system, heavily eletronically focused and with a great, but not outstanding lens range.

If its FF I will be more interested.

But remember that the great thing about the M9, as well as the quality and the lenses, is the work flow. Its love or hate, but if you love it, there is no going back to another camera for many things.

Talking about lenses, the 50mm Summilux ASPH is worth just buying an M9 for ...

stevielee wrote:

Don't look now, but the Leica may just have to contend with another digital interchangeable "rangefinder" camera that will also most likely accept M-Mount lenses for less than 2K US$.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=40224360

How will the Red Dot Company respond if the rumors are true and FujiFilm releases a camera that trumps the M9 every which way to sunday for less than 1/3 it's price?

Leica just may have their first, direct competitor to it's M series rangefinders. Up until now, they have gotten away with charging 7-8K for a camera that used to be the only real digital rangefinder game in town...But it looks like the gameboard are about to radically change for Leica when Fuji announces it new X1 Pro "mirrorless" digital rangefinder.

Let the new Fuji M-Mount games begin.....

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VladimirV
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Re: It isn't so
In reply to harold1968, Jan 5, 2012

Not that I expect much from Fuji after they messed up the firmware of both the X10 and X100 cameras but I expect more from them than from Leica who either re-badge Panasonic cameras or rehash the same old thing without even trying something new. The S2 is an exception and while it's nice it's not interesting for the majority of people.

harold1968 wrote:

If Fuji made a brass and magnesium camera with a true RF mechanism and a lens range of Leica quality I would be interested, but I doubt it.

Why is the RF mechanism so important? It has a lot of problems with close focusing, telephoto lenses, needs to be calibrated properly, can't deal with lenses which are not RF coupled, have focus shift and the list goes on. Next to the fact that it's impossible to accurately frame with it.

As for the lens range, Fuji could simply release an adapter to mount M lenses on it like you can do on the NEX cameras or the Ricoh GXR even without an adapter.

Talking about lenses, the 50mm Summilux ASPH is worth just buying an M9 for ...

Why buy a M9 when it's mostly about the lenses which work on other cameras with less compromises?

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harold1968
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Re: It isn't so
In reply to VladimirV, Jan 5, 2012

VladimirV wrote:

Not that I expect much from Fuji after they messed up the firmware of both the X10 and X100 cameras but I expect more from them than from Leica who either re-badge Panasonic cameras or rehash the same old thing without even trying something new. The S2 is an exception and while it's nice it's not interesting for the majority of people.

The M9 is completely new. The RF is the most precise focusing system and is a reason for buying it.

What you said is like accusing British Airways of re-hashing the old thing as they still use planes and haven't tried balloons for short-haul

harold1968 wrote:

If Fuji made a brass and magnesium camera with a true RF mechanism and a lens range of Leica quality I would be interested, but I doubt it.

Why is the RF mechanism so important? It has a lot of problems with close focusing, telephoto lenses, needs to be calibrated properly, can't deal with lenses which are not RF coupled, have focus shift and the list goes on. Next to the fact that it's impossible to accurately frame with it.

There is no problem with close focusing. You just can't close focus below whatever the lens is rated at.

SLR macro lenses can focus closer, but Leica make a macro kit lens for those who want.
There are many things the RF doesn't do, like long telephoto (beyond 135mm).
The M9 no good for some things and unsurpassed for others, what else is new!
The framing is second nature to me and believe 99% of users.

As for the lens range, Fuji could simply release an adapter to mount M lenses on it like you can do on the NEX cameras or the Ricoh GXR even without an adapter.

Talking about lenses, the 50mm Summilux ASPH is worth just buying an M9 for ...

Why buy a M9 when it's mostly about the lenses which work on other cameras with less compromises?

The M9 is a no compromise travel camera and small studio/fine art camera.

M lenses on other cameras don't have the focus system and furthermore no M lens works on another electronic FF camera, so buying a summilux and loosing 33% of DOF control is a waste

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jeff hladun
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Re: It isn't so
In reply to VladimirV, Jan 5, 2012

VladimirV wrote:

Why is the RF mechanism so important?

Vladimir, the rangefinder is of utmost importance when shooting on the street as it allows the quickest route to visually frame a composition. The photographer sees outside the framelines and can move his camera to the area of optimal visual impact. When the lens is set on a particular zone of focus beforehand, the time spent focusing is simply zero; in other words much faster than any autofocus system.

With a rangefinder, all that needs to be done is know where to plant your feet, and when to press the shutter - if there is some sort of planning done first. If street photography isn't of much interest to you, then the rangefinder approach can be bested with other systems. If spontaneous photography is of interest to you, then nothing beats using a rangefinder with Depth-of-Field marked manual focus lenses.
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VladimirV
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Re: It isn't so
In reply to harold1968, Jan 5, 2012

harold1968 wrote:

The M9 is completely new. The RF is the most precise focusing system and is a reason for buying it.

If you try the Ricoh GXR or Sony NEX cameras with their focus peaking system you will see that the RF is not that precise as you think.

What you said is like accusing British Airways of re-hashing the old thing as they still use planes and haven't tried balloons for short-haul

Oh, I am accusing Airbus, Boeing and the rest for standing still and not moving ahead with their planes, we had the Concorde in the 80's and it allowed for very fast travel, now we have huge planes like the A320 but they have not improved on anything, not on time nor actual space for each passenger . So yeah, I don't like companies who stand still and not innovate or move their technology ahead.

There is no problem with close focusing. You just can't close focus below whatever the lens is rated at.

So you dispute that there is parallax or you need special close up 'glasses' for lenses which can focus below 0.7m?

The M9 no good for some things and unsurpassed for others, what else is new!

What is it unsurpassed for? For being one of the most expensive cameras on the market?

The framing is second nature to me and believe 99% of users.

Whether it is 2nd nature or not is irrelevant since you and all others will have to agree that the frame lines are simply not very accurate. Knowing by how much they are is simply working around the problem but it does not make it ok.

The M9 is a no compromise travel camera and small studio/fine art camera.

Every camera has compromises and I highly doubt the M9 is a no compromise travel camera since you compromise on taking macro shots, telephoto shots, shots in rain or under water and so on. Since travel can include any or all of these things it has compromises, don't you think?

M lenses on other cameras don't have the focus system and furthermore no M lens works on another electronic FF camera, so buying a summilux and loosing 33% of DOF control is a waste

M lenses on other cameras have other focus systems which are superior in some ways, like focusing and composing a 90mm or 135mm M lens for example or a lens under 21mm without the need for an external finder just to name a few.

As for the DOF, it stays mostly the same on a APS camera, the FOV is just less.

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VladimirV
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Re: It isn't so
In reply to jeff hladun, Jan 5, 2012

jeff hladun wrote:

Vladimir, the rangefinder is of utmost importance when shooting on the street as it allows the quickest route to visually frame a composition. The photographer sees outside the framelines and can move his camera to the area of optimal visual impact.

I would dispute that since a live view camera, especially one with a tilt screen like the NEX, is way better suited for this since you can hip shoot while still composing your shot carefully so you don't need to raise the camera to your eye to take the shot so are more inconspicuous and faster.

When the lens is set on a particular zone of focus beforehand, the time spent focusing is simply zero; in other words much faster than any autofocus system.

Zone focusing needs only one thing and this is a quick way to set the lens to a specific distance, so any lens with distance markings can do the same without the need of a RF.

With a rangefinder, all that needs to be done is know where to plant your feet, and when to press the shutter - if there is some sort of planning done first. If street photography isn't of much interest to you, then the rangefinder approach can be bested with other systems. If spontaneous photography is of interest to you, then nothing beats using a rangefinder with Depth-of-Field marked manual focus lenses.

Street photography is of high importance to me and I have been doing it for a while so I agree, nothing beats distance markings on the lens or a quick way (like the Snap mode on Ricoh cameras) to set the lens to a specific distance. The RF is irrelevant for street photography since you will be shooting from the hip most of the time and don't really have enough time to align the lines in the patch anyway.

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harold1968
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Re: It isn't so
In reply to VladimirV, Jan 5, 2012

VladimirV wrote:

harold1968 wrote:

If you try the Ricoh GXR or Sony NEX cameras with their focus peaking system you will see that the RF is not that precise as you think.

yes it is

So you dispute that there is parallax or you need special close up 'glasses' for lenses which can focus below 0.7m?

there is no problem with focusing at distances rated

The M9 no good for some things and unsurpassed for others, what else is new!

What is it unsurpassed for? For being one of the most expensive cameras on the market?

you are obviously not acquainted with most of the market

Every camera has compromises and I highly doubt the M9 is a no compromise travel camera since you compromise on taking macro shots, telephoto shots, shots in rain or under water and so on. Since travel can include any or all of these things it has compromises, don't you think?

no

As for the DOF, it stays mostly the same on a APS camera, the FOV is just less.

Its funny how people who can't afford or use FF and smaller argue that the DOF is the same as FF where it clearly is not.
This is one of the most important creative controls.

I don't suffer this problem. I clearly say I would like a S2 but can't afford it. Nevertheless it is not as good a travel camera as the M9

You are obviously trying to reverse justify a ricoh.
It is a fine camera, just live with what you have.

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VladimirV
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Re: It isn't so
In reply to harold1968, Jan 5, 2012

harold1968 wrote:

If you try the Ricoh GXR or Sony NEX cameras with their focus peaking system you will see that the RF is not that precise as you think.

yes it is

No it isn't!
This is not really an answer is it?

there is no problem with focusing at distances rated

So there are no parallax problems with a RF at close distances and you can focus just fine under 0.7m? You must have a different RF camera than the ones I have seen.

you are obviously not acquainted with most of the market

Yes I am (just to follow on from your style of replying).

no

Of course, how could a M9 ever have any compromises, it is perfect.

Its funny how people who can't afford or use FF and smaller argue that the DOF is the same as FF where it clearly is not.

While I can afford a FF camera, I don't need to since I can use a simple tool like this to find out: http://dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

This is one of the most important creative controls.

Isn't the most important creative control the framing and you really think having less DOF will be a good thing for 99% of shots while travelling?

I don't suffer this problem. I clearly say I would like a S2 but can't afford it. Nevertheless it is not as good a travel camera as the M9

Of course it's not as good as the M9, nothing is really. The M9 is above everything else, at least until the M10 comes out.

You are obviously trying to reverse justify a ricoh.
It is a fine camera, just live with what you have.

I am not trying to justify anything, I am trying to have a discussion and understand more about the M9 and the people using it.

So far I have learned that it is perfect and has no flaws and any problems related to the RF do not apply to it.

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harold1968
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Re: It isn't so
In reply to VladimirV, Jan 5, 2012

you didn't read anything I wrote

and your answers make no sense

VladimirV wrote:

harold1968 wrote:

If you try the Ricoh GXR or Sony NEX cameras with their focus peaking system you will see that the RF is not that precise as you think.

yes it is

No it isn't!
This is not really an answer is it?

there is no problem with focusing at distances rated

So there are no parallax problems with a RF at close distances and you can focus just fine under 0.7m? You must have a different RF camera than the ones I have seen.

you are obviously not acquainted with most of the market

Yes I am (just to follow on from your style of replying).

no

Of course, how could a M9 ever have any compromises, it is perfect.

Its funny how people who can't afford or use FF and smaller argue that the DOF is the same as FF where it clearly is not.

While I can afford a FF camera, I don't need to since I can use a simple tool like this to find out: http://dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

This is one of the most important creative controls.

Isn't the most important creative control the framing and you really think having less DOF will be a good thing for 99% of shots while travelling?

I don't suffer this problem. I clearly say I would like a S2 but can't afford it. Nevertheless it is not as good a travel camera as the M9

Of course it's not as good as the M9, nothing is really. The M9 is above everything else, at least until the M10 comes out.

You are obviously trying to reverse justify a ricoh.
It is a fine camera, just live with what you have.

I am not trying to justify anything, I am trying to have a discussion and understand more about the M9 and the people using it.

So far I have learned that it is perfect and has no flaws and any problems related to the RF do not apply to it.

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