Opinions on image quality of X10 based on user images being posted

Started Nov 6, 2011 | Discussions
Joe Mannex
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Opinions on image quality of X10 based on user images being posted
Nov 6, 2011

I do see some nice compositions and image captures by good photographers, however, I am just not seeing that the X10 has distanced itself from P7100, XZ1 or G12.

Maybe in a lab it will test better and I will be convinced, but, I don't see that it handles night scenes very well and there is the typical small sensor noise that is evident even in good light.

This is an early opinion because I am not giving up on wanting the X10 to be the best advanced compact.

Okay, that's my thoughts, and yours are...?

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Sunshine_boy
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Re: Opinions on image quality of X10 based on user images being posted
In reply to Joe Mannex, Nov 6, 2011

Allow it some time to 'mature' in the hands of early users...
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desertpullout
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Re: Opinions on image quality of X10 based on user images being posted
In reply to Joe Mannex, Nov 6, 2011

In my opinion the X10 is an expensive toy and was not created with professionals in mind. That's the whole point. It was made for people who want to have fun taking random pictures, who aren't likely to own a large-format printer, and who probably post most of their photos to facebook after wrecking them with iPhoto. Now, given all that, in the hands of a professional (or even a skilled enthusiast) the X10 is likely to produce stunning images in certain circumstances. But it isn't an X100 and it certainly isn't a DSLR. For those of you struggling with IQ worries, I'd consider upgrading to a more robust format. The rest of us will be playing around and having fun.

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photofan1986
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Re: Opinions on image quality of X10 based on user images being posted
In reply to desertpullout, Nov 6, 2011

That's a rough point. I'm sure the X10 is a powerful tool, but certainly it has its limits.
Calling this camera a toy makes every single compact camera a toy, too.

For better handling AND better sensor, there are not many alternatives in the compact camera department. The Nex 7 maybe, the Fuji X100, and in some way the Sigma Foveon compacts (but those have big flaws, too).

Show me a compact camera that has great controls, a usable viewfinder, a compact body, good image quality in most cases, all that for about 500€.

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TEBnewyork
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Re: Opinions on image quality of X10 based on user images being posted
In reply to Joe Mannex, Nov 6, 2011

That at the end of the day it does have a smallish sensor and it isn't the holy grail. What we do have is a camera with excellent build quality well positioned external controls, a good lens.

Did it have to distance itself from the other cameras to be the preferred choice for many.

I've had the G12 but thought the XZ1 was a better all around camera. Now the choice for me is between the X10 and the XZ-1.

I do think the X10 can be the best overall compact. Too early for me to be definitive that way on IQ but for me handling is better than the LX5, Xz1, S95, G12 (never tried the P7100). Lens speed on the S95 and G12 doesn't compare as well.

I do have some good shots the other night from ISO 1600 and higher that I'm impressed with. I just haven't shot down at ISO 100 yet.

Joe Mannex wrote:

I do see some nice compositions and image captures by good photographers, however, I am just not seeing that the X10 has distanced itself from P7100, XZ1 or G12.

Maybe in a lab it will test better and I will be convinced, but, I don't see that it handles night scenes very well and there is the typical small sensor noise that is evident even in good light.

This is an early opinion because I am not giving up on wanting the X10 to be the best advanced compact.

Okay, that's my thoughts, and yours are...?

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BillCPA
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Re: Opinions on image quality of X10 based on user images being posted
In reply to desertpullout, Nov 6, 2011

desertpullout wrote:

In my opinion the X10 is an expensive toy and was not created with professionals in mind. That's the whole point. It was made for people who want to have fun taking random pictures, who aren't likely to own a large-format printer, and who probably post most of their photos to facebook after wrecking them with iPhoto. Now, given all that, in the hands of a professional (or even a skilled enthusiast) the X10 is likely to produce stunning images in certain circumstances. But it isn't an X100 and it certainly isn't a DSLR. For those of you struggling with IQ worries, I'd consider upgrading to a more robust format. The rest of us will be playing around and having fun.

Good point, although I wouldn't consider it a 'toy'. There is a market for those photographers currently using big/heavy DSLR equipment to have a good 'walking around' camera, and I am one of those. I do a lot of voluntary photography for several community choirs and orchestras. This includes photos during concert practice and sometimes during the concert - in that case I use my DSLR and get good pics at ISO 6400 (Nikon D700). I also use it during rehearsals and other special events. For those situations, a smaller more inconspicuous camera would suffice, hence my decision to buy the X10. (I also looked at micro 4 3rds, but I didn't want to get into another system right now). I find the X10 to be perfect for those situations in which I don't need the DSLR - and, yes, it is a fun camera. Would another brand have been good enough for me - yes, of course, however, I am a long time Fuji user (602, S2, S3, S5) and I like what I see out of their cameras.
Regards to all. Have fun - go take some photos!
Bill

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Joe Mannex
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Re: Opinions on image quality of X10 based on user images being posted
In reply to desertpullout, Nov 6, 2011

good take. thanks.

desertpullout wrote:

In my opinion the X10 is an expensive toy and was not created with professionals in mind. That's the whole point. It was made for people who want to have fun taking random pictures, who aren't likely to own a large-format printer, and who probably post most of their photos to facebook after wrecking them with iPhoto. Now, given all that, in the hands of a professional (or even a skilled enthusiast) the X10 is likely to produce stunning images in certain circumstances. But it isn't an X100 and it certainly isn't a DSLR. For those of you struggling with IQ worries, I'd consider upgrading to a more robust format. The rest of us will be playing around and having fun.

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Joe Mannex
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Re: Opinions on image quality of X10 based on user images being posted
In reply to TEBnewyork, Nov 6, 2011

Good insight, thanks.

TEBnewyork wrote:

That at the end of the day it does have a smallish sensor and it isn't the holy grail. What we do have is a camera with excellent build quality well positioned external controls, a good lens.

Did it have to distance itself from the other cameras to be the preferred choice for many.

I've had the G12 but thought the XZ1 was a better all around camera. Now the choice for me is between the X10 and the XZ-1.

I do think the X10 can be the best overall compact. Too early for me to be definitive that way on IQ but for me handling is better than the LX5, Xz1, S95, G12 (never tried the P7100). Lens speed on the S95 and G12 doesn't compare as well.

I do have some good shots the other night from ISO 1600 and higher that I'm impressed with. I just haven't shot down at ISO 100 yet.

Joe Mannex wrote:

I do see some nice compositions and image captures by good photographers, however, I am just not seeing that the X10 has distanced itself from P7100, XZ1 or G12.

Maybe in a lab it will test better and I will be convinced, but, I don't see that it handles night scenes very well and there is the typical small sensor noise that is evident even in good light.

This is an early opinion because I am not giving up on wanting the X10 to be the best advanced compact.

Okay, that's my thoughts, and yours are...?

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turnschuh
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Re: Opinions on image quality of X10 based on user images being posted
In reply to BillCPA, Nov 6, 2011

Are m43 realy that bigger?

For example, shouldnt a oly EPL2 with the def. zoom kit be just a bit bigger but provide a lot better IQ? or take the NEX C3...

all for around the same price.

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Joe Mannex
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Re: Opinions on image quality of X10 based on user images being posted
In reply to BillCPA, Nov 6, 2011

thanks. It seems to be marketed for the sophisticated shooter, at least in the promo video. At its price, it could be a toy for a more affluent buyer wanting a second camera.

Of course you are correct about DSLR vs X10.

I have had very robust formats and this can get in the way of accepting the small sensor compromise.

BillCPA wrote:

desertpullout wrote:

In my opinion the X10 is an expensive toy and was not created with professionals in mind. That's the whole point. It was made for people who want to have fun taking random pictures, who aren't likely to own a large-format printer, and who probably post most of their photos to facebook after wrecking them with iPhoto. Now, given all that, in the hands of a professional (or even a skilled enthusiast) the X10 is likely to produce stunning images in certain circumstances. But it isn't an X100 and it certainly isn't a DSLR. For those of you struggling with IQ worries, I'd consider upgrading to a more robust format. The rest of us will be playing around and having fun.

Good point, although I wouldn't consider it a 'toy'. There is a market for those photographers currently using big/heavy DSLR equipment to have a good 'walking around' camera, and I am one of those. I do a lot of voluntary photography for several community choirs and orchestras. This includes photos during concert practice and sometimes during the concert - in that case I use my DSLR and get good pics at ISO 6400 (Nikon D700). I also use it during rehearsals and other special events. For those situations, a smaller more inconspicuous camera would suffice, hence my decision to buy the X10. (I also looked at micro 4 3rds, but I didn't want to get into another system right now). I find the X10 to be perfect for those situations in which I don't need the DSLR - and, yes, it is a fun camera. Would another brand have been good enough for me - yes, of course, however, I am a long time Fuji user (602, S2, S3, S5) and I like what I see out of their cameras.
Regards to all. Have fun - go take some photos!
Bill

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Daniel Lauring
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Re: Opinions on image quality of X10 based on user images being posted
In reply to desertpullout, Nov 6, 2011

I strongly disagree with this post, which comes across as a little condescending (though that might not have been the OP's intent.)

All cameras are tools. They get used and misused. Some are better than others. Some are better at particular things than others, and worse at other things.

Furthermore, there have been HUGE advances in the quality of these tools in the last decade. A decade ago, digital photography was just getting on par with silver halide. The better cameras were starting to produce the same resolution with less noise (but also less dynamic range.) Editing in post was the biggest equalizer. We could do things with Photoshop that couldn't be imagined with conventional developing. Meanwhile, small sensored cameras were horribly noisy and slow as molasses.

Today, many small sensored camera cameras, perform on par with digital SLR's of a decade ago, rivaling film...actually doing things film could never do, like take printable pictures at iso 3200.

The X10 is another step along that evolution...better than the existing competition (lower noise and more dynamic range) in it's class (for now) It isn't as good as a Pro-SLR, but it can do a decent job replacing it, for many uses, and certainly can produce output that is quite excellent.

It isn't the tool for birding or high speed sports (The Canon SX40HS or Nikon V1 would be better in those two arenas.) There are better choices for bright landscape photography (A G3 with pancake wide angle would work better.) But for a lot of stuff in between it is a great compromise between size, weight and performance.

desertpullout wrote:

In my opinion the X10 is an expensive toy and was not created with professionals in mind. That's the whole point. It was made for people who want to have fun taking random pictures, who aren't likely to own a large-format printer, and who probably post most of their photos to facebook after wrecking them with iPhoto. Now, given all that, in the hands of a professional (or even a skilled enthusiast) the X10 is likely to produce stunning images in certain circumstances. But it isn't an X100 and it certainly isn't a DSLR. For those of you struggling with IQ worries, I'd consider upgrading to a more robust format. The rest of us will be playing around and having fun.

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BillCPA
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Re: Opinions on image quality of X10 based on user images being posted
In reply to Joe Mannex, Nov 6, 2011

.....snip.....

I have had very robust formats and this can get in the way of accepting the small sensor compromise.

Yes - if you mean comparing results from my DSLR to what I get out of the D700. That was difficult for me at first. With any new camera, I shoot hundreds of test pics under different lighting situations. I made the mistake of comparing results from the X10 to the D700 (especially high ISO shots) - however, then when I put them on the table and compared the costs .... $600 for X10 and over $4000 for the D700 plus lesn, I soon was able to set my expectations where they should be I've had the camera less than a week, however, so far I'm pleased with the quality of the JPGs I'm seeing. On the other hand, I really haven't kept up with the advances these cameras have made in the past few years, as I've been shooting only with my DSLR. I bought a Canon IS10 several years ago that my daughter took with her on several trips overseas, and I have to say that I was also impressed with the quality of those images for a $200 camera! So, I guess it comes down to realistic expectations. I will be using both cameras (X10 and D700) but I'll probably be using the X10 a lot more for 'fun' events. My daughter used my D700 and 24-70 for pictures at a family picnic. That's when I became a little nervous about someone else using my expensive equipment and when I should start looking for a good camera that all family members can use.
Regards,
Bill

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TEBnewyork
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Re: Opinions on image quality of X10 based on user images being posted
In reply to turnschuh, Nov 6, 2011

Honestly I don't think that the IQ is far different. This goes back to the statement made on the preview. With the E-PL2 you have an f3.5 - 5.6 lens that is shorter in focal length. So, the X10 compares well because you are ALWAYs shooting with a faster lens and it has more reach. So, IQ differences are mitigated.

Yes, you can change lenses with the E-PL2 but then you need a bag etc.

At the end of the day it depends on what you need. If the X10 supplements a dslr it might be a different answer than "I'm looking for one photographic solution" where m4/3 with more than more lens is a system.

turnschuh wrote:

Are m43 realy that bigger?

For example, shouldnt a oly EPL2 with the def. zoom kit be just a bit bigger but provide a lot better IQ? or take the NEX C3...

all for around the same price.

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KLinLA
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Re: Opinions on image quality of X10 based on user images being posted
In reply to turnschuh, Nov 6, 2011

The X10 sensor size is 2/3" (or 1/1.5"), and so just a touch larger
than the common size of high-end compacts (1/1.6").

A micro 4-3 sensor is 4/3" (or 1/0.75") and quite a bit bigger.

This link shows a diagram showing the relative sensor sizes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sensor_sizes_overlaid_inside.svg

Looks like a micro 4-3 sensor would be about 4 times the area
of the X10 sensor.

I was considering the X10, but have just decided to go micro 4-3.

turnschuh wrote:

Are m43 realy that bigger?

For example, shouldnt a oly EPL2 with the def. zoom kit be just a bit bigger but provide a lot better IQ? or take the NEX C3...

all for around the same price.

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Daniel Lauring
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Re: Opinions on image quality of X10 based on user images being posted
In reply to KLinLA, Nov 6, 2011

A FF 35mm sensor is 4 times the area of the m43. There are bigger sensors than FF. In the end, it is always a compromise between portability, cost and performance. The Fuji F10 was the first compact camera that yielded results in lower natural light, that I found acceptable. It was a compromise, but I yielded very good results with limitations. The X10 is many times better.

KLinLA wrote:

Looks like a micro 4-3 sensor would be about 4 times the area
of the X10 sensor.

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millsart
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So being "the best" is only about IQ ? and unrealistic IQ demands at that ??
In reply to Joe Mannex, Nov 6, 2011

So a camera on can only be "the best" if it has significantly better iQ than the XZ1, G12 etc ???

That makes zero sense to me, because 1, those are other cameras are all good within the context of point point and shoots aka larger sensor compacts and 2, its totally ignoring many other important aspecsts of the camera.

I've owned a LX5, G12, P7000 and XZ1 over the years. They all take nice enough photos, again within the scope of what they are, but none of them really handled all that great, G12 probably being my favorite in that regard.

Compared to the G12 though, X10 I feel is a much better tool because its manual zoom control over the rocker, its much faster lens, an OVF that isn't so small its next to useless and better AF/frame rate.

Its got all that and you still want more ?

Heck, it could have WORSE IQ than the G12 and it still would be my choice, because the way a camera handles, how it shoots, how much fun it is it to pick up matters more than some silly measurebation over the differences between compact cameras, all of which are good for what they are, and all of which are pretty weak compared to other market segments.

I mean does no one actually takes pictures for any reason other than to post 100% crops so their online peers can dissect them ?? Whats the fun or point in doing that ?

When I'm out shooting with my ipHone I never seem to have anyone saying they need to see a 100% crop, or the details are soft etc.

What exactly do people shoot that requires this perfect detail and resolution but that at the same time they refuse to use a better camera for ?

Put a Zeiss lens on a Sony NEX5n and your in business. There you go, a golden ticket for clean files and resolution, no need to waste time on the X10 any more. Countless other good choices besides just the NEX too.

Some insane deals on the m4/3 stuff too. Pen EPL1 2 lens kit for $399 I think I read the other day.

Better deal, better performance and much cheaper. Again, if that matters why waste time on the X10 ??

If the only judge of a camera is a 100% crop, the X10 is an awful choice, and honestly any compact is.

Why even waste your time on any of them if thats how you judge a cameras usefulness ?

Just don't get t

Joe Mannex wrote:

I do see some nice compositions and image captures by good photographers, however, I am just not seeing that the X10 has distanced itself from P7100, XZ1 or G12.

Maybe in a lab it will test better and I will be convinced, but, I don't see that it handles night scenes very well and there is the typical small sensor noise that is evident even in good light.

This is an early opinion because I am not giving up on wanting the X10 to be the best advanced compact.

Okay, that's my thoughts, and yours are...?

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jcmarfilph
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Re: Opinions on image quality of X10 based on user images being posted
In reply to Joe Mannex, Nov 6, 2011

Joe Mannex wrote:

I do see some nice compositions and image captures by good photographers, however, I am just not seeing that the X10 has distanced itself from P7100, XZ1 or G12.

If you will spend more time digging in the FTF. You will find 3 or more comparisons that the X10 trounced the G12, G11, XZ-1, TL500, LX5, LX3, S90, S95, S100. So a P7100 will most likely fall short too versus the X10.

How many more proofs and comparisons do you need?

X10 is not significantly better than any of the current premium cams, but the important thing is, it is better and that put itself as the best.

Maybe in a lab it will test better and I will be convinced, but, I don't see that it handles night scenes very well and there is the typical small sensor noise that is evident even in good light.

Again few comparisons have been made in the lab so look around.

This is an early opinion because I am not giving up on wanting the X10 to be the best advanced compact.

Okay, that's my thoughts, and yours are...?

X10 is the best, not but huge margin though.

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Daniel Lauring
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Re: So being "the best" is only about IQ ? and unrealistic IQ demands at th
In reply to millsart, Nov 6, 2011

Yes, for every detractor of the X10 who thinks one should get a m43, there is a detractor of the m43 who will tell you how much better the NEX 5n is, and then there is the guy who will use nothing less than a FF camera, like the Canon 5D Mark II.

For low light, that Pen kit will actually not perform as well as the X10 due to the slower lens speeds and older sensor in the Oly PEN series. To match the X10's low light performance you'd have to invest in some fast m43 primes which will cost you nearly as much as that kit (though I agree the kit is still a tremendous value.)

millsart wrote:

Put a Zeiss lens on a Sony NEX5n and your in business. There you go, a golden ticket for clean files and resolution, no need to waste time on the X10 any more. Countless other good choices besides just the NEX too.

Some insane deals on the m4/3 stuff too. Pen EPL1 2 lens kit for $399 I think I read the other day.

Better deal, better performance and much cheaper. Again, if that matters why waste time on the X10 ??

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jcmarfilph
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Re: Opinions on image quality of X10 based on user images being posted
In reply to jcmarfilph, Nov 6, 2011

jcmarfilph wrote:

Joe Mannex wrote:

Okay, that's my thoughts, and yours are...?

X10 is the best, not but by huge margin though.

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Daniel Lauring
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Re: Opinions on image quality of X10 based on user images being posted
In reply to jcmarfilph, Nov 6, 2011

Not to mention, if you always need to have the best be prepared to keep the cash flowing because each year cameras get better and better. In a year or two there will be a Canon or Nikon that will leapfrog the X10.

jcmarfilph wrote:

X10 is the best, not but huge margin though.

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