Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??

Started Oct 31, 2011 | Discussions
noobdprseller
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Re: 10fps focus tracking accuracy Re: beteen evolution & revolution
In reply to noobdprseller, Nov 1, 2011

http://s1038.photobucket.com/albums/a465/having_anicetime/Fujifilm%20X10/Fujifilm%20X10%20FOCUS%20TRACKING/?albumview=slideshow

Here is the link again. Only approx 1min.
I was panning & X10 was tracking.

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absentaneous
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Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??
In reply to millsart, Nov 1, 2011

I would first ask myself what does to be a "point and shoot" camera actually mean? to me a point and shoot camera means the kind of camera that does all by itself apart pointing to a subject and of course taking a photo. In this sense any camera set on auto can be a point a shoot camera even the most expensive and advanced one. of course a more advanced camera also has other exposure modes which can turn it's operation into something else than just "point and shoot".

so to me, having an option of setting the exposure manually has nothing to do with "point and shoot".

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Daniel Lauring
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Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??
In reply to absentaneous, Nov 1, 2011

I used to say, in fact I posted it on dpreview 10 years ago, "The Canon D30 is the best point and shoot camera I've ever owned." Having P&S capability is a good thing. So is having manual control. The X10 is not a professional SLR, but it isn't a simple P&S either. It does a nice job straddling the fence, as many "prosumer" cameras do nowadays.

P.S. You gotta love Google search engine.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=2666469

absentaneous wrote:

I would first ask myself what does to be a "point and shoot" camera actually mean? to me a point and shoot camera means the kind of camera that does all by itself apart pointing to a subject and of course taking a photo.

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Dave Chilvers
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Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??
In reply to millsart, Nov 1, 2011

millsart wrote:

I've really confused by some of the threads and comments I've been seeing regradig the X10.

Do some people not realize this is a point and shoot camera and think its going to replace their Leica, DSLR, X100, m4/3 gear etc ??

All these complaints about noise levels, lack of resolution etc. Its a small sensor point and shoot, what do people expect ??

Its "bigger" 2/3 sensor is really only about 10% or so bigger than than of the LX5, G12 and all the other premium compact.

Thats not going to make a huge difference in performance, nor DoF. Its still a small sensor and isn't going to come close to even APS-C, nor should anyone expect it to.

All this camera is is a very cool retro styled point and shoot with some really nice ergonomic direct controls, good (for a p&s) image quality, and a pretty nice fast zoom and an OVF thats usable, but nothing better than sticking an external finder on a LX5 or other cameras, aside from that it zooms, which is cool.

Thats is, its not going to replace a Leica, or be a poor man's Leica, or even a poor man X100 or any other camera.

All its going to be is a fun little point and shoot that handles really well and can take pictures that are good for a point and shoot.

Not going to a low light machine, not going to be a pro wedding shooters camera, not going to produce fine art 20X30" prints etc.

Its going to do the same roles you'd carry a G12, LX5, P7000 etc for, but with a bit more style and a nice interface.

I think its awesome for what it is, I handled one, loved it and have mine on order, but lets just have some sense of perspective here folks.

Remember, its just a point and shoot, treat it like one and you'll be happy. Think its going to allow you to sell off all your other gear, have a better sensor than a NEX5n or K5 etc is just silly.

Oh No!!! You mean the X10 won't take pictures like my 5dmk2???? I think I'll cancel my pre-order:-)

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millsart
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Those look very inconclusive to me, plus AF + Panning ??
In reply to noobdprseller, Nov 1, 2011

If your panning with a subject moving across the image plane, and the subject is moving in a straight line right ahead, theres no change in subject to camera distance that would really require any AF.

As a sports photographer I cover some motorsports events and often will do a slow shutter pan as the cars or bikes go around the track and I don't ever need to focus for that. I focus once to get the given distance needed and then don't touch the AF button again.

Likewise, with the people walking towards you, the change in subject distance per time is pretty slow, and given the rather deep DoF of the camera, you could very well lock focus, and since the subject is moving pretty slow, and the DoF is deep, you could easily get 7-10 frames off before the subject would be out of the DoF.

I'd try shooting something like cars on a residential street moving at a slower speed, people on bikes, runners etc coming towards you, zoomed to 112mm and with the faster subject to camera changing rate, and shallower DoF, see how well it can work in that type of true test of AF tracking ability.

noobdprseller wrote:

http://s1038.photobucket.com/albums/a465/having_anicetime/Fujifilm%20X10/Fujifilm%20X10%20FOCUS%20TRACKING/?albumview=slideshow

Here is the link again. Only approx 1min.
I was panning & X10 was tracking.

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HCB "Photography has not changed since its origin except in its technical aspects, which for me are not important."

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millsart
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My "boring" thread got your attention and seems quite popular....
In reply to HDaRt, Nov 1, 2011

Interesting....

Well, while I certainly don't mean to give an air of superiority, I would say that in all fairness, given this is my profession, and that I've also worked as an instructor and magazine and newspaper editor in my career that I may know more and have more experience in this field and this industry than many.

That said, I find it interesting that you suggest this is such a boring thread. Why ? Because its based in fact and reality and realistic expectations ?

Do you really find threads where someone is whining about how bad the camera is because their expectations are way off base more "fun" ??

That what you enjoy ? Lots of screaming and arm waving by neophytes with little to no conceptual knowledge to back it up ?? That a good time on the internet forums ??

Seems this boring thread has gotten lots of responses, and even you took the time away from having fun elsewhere to post here, so how boring can it really be ??

Mind you that I never suggested everyone like the X10, that its perfect for everyone etc. Its not. I think it really only is a good choice for a small number of actual people, but its great for what it is, just as countless other cameras are.

Nothing wrong with not liking something, as long as its because of what is is.

Complaining on an sports car forum about how disapointing you are your new Corvette has no ground clearance and get stuck in the mud when you tried to take it on a Jeep trail is just a plain waste of time.

No one has to like a Corvette, or suggest everyone drive one etc, but to complain about the Vette as being so poor at something it was never made to do....well...

HDaRt wrote:

Some cameras capture the attention of photographers who have an idealized version of their perfect camera. And though some of their expectations may be a step or two away from realization, they are based on their knowledge and photographic experience, limited or otherwise.

"All these complaints about noise levels, lack of resolution etc. Its a small sensor point and shoot, what do people expect ??"

They have stated what they expect and even if they aren't always in touch with the limitations of technology they are entitled to have an opinion. Calling them out like you are the professor on advanced camera tech class changes nothing but conveys a position of self proclaimed superiority. Frankly, that's worse, and boring.

millsart wrote:

Do some people not realize this is a point and shoot camera and think its going to replace their Leica, DSLR, X100, m4/3 gear etc ??

Its "bigger" 2/3 sensor is really only about 10% or so bigger than than of the LX5, G12 and all the other premium compact.

Thats not going to make a huge difference in performance, nor DoF. Its still a small sensor and isn't going to come close to even APS-C, nor should anyone expect it to.

All this camera is is a very cool retro styled point and shoot with some really nice ergonomic direct controls, good (for a p&s) image quality, and a pretty nice fast zoom and an OVF thats usable, but nothing better than sticking an external finder on a LX5 or other cameras, aside from that it zooms, which is cool.

Thats is, its not going to replace a Leica, or be a poor man's Leica, or even a poor man X100 or any other camera.

All its going to be is a fun little point and shoot that handles really well and can take pictures that are good for a point and shoot.

Not going to a low light machine, not going to be a pro wedding shooters camera, not going to produce fine art 20X30" prints etc.

Its going to do the same roles you'd carry a G12, LX5, P7000 etc for, but with a bit more style and a nice interface.

I think its awesome for what it is, I handled one, loved it and have mine on order, but lets just have some sense of perspective here folks.

Remember, its just a point and shoot, treat it like one and you'll be happy. Think its going to allow you to sell off all your other gear, have a better sensor than a NEX5n or K5 etc is just silly.

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noobdprseller
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f2.2 af tracking rather excellent for compact
In reply to millsart, Nov 1, 2011

Hello

millsart wrote:

I'd try shooting something like cars on a residential street moving at a slower speed, people on bikes, runners etc coming towards you, zoomed to 112mm and with the faster subject to camera changing rate, and shallower DoF, see how well it can work in that type of true test of AF tracking ability.

noobdprseller wrote:

http://s1038.photobucket.com/albums/a465/having_anicetime/Fujifilm%20X10/Fujifilm%20X10%20FOCUS%20TRACKING/?albumview=slideshow

Here is the link again. Only approx 1min.
I was panning & X10 was tracking.

F2.2 all of them. Also check the ficus integrity, accuracy of clothing colours on all the shoppers, skin tones, shop signs, wb.

Obv in a mall theres is nothing fast. As i wrote a few time i was testing it at CameraWorld.
With practice im sure X10 would do well at fast moving, sports.

X10 aint no Canon 1dmk4, for a compact it does very well.

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HCB "Photography has not changed since its origin except in its technical aspects, which for me are not important."

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HDaRt
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Re: Your "boring" thread got your attention and seems quite popular....
In reply to millsart, Nov 1, 2011

Let me clarify for you, it is boring to read you picking other forum participants apart. I also could have said, I find it to be boorish behavior for someone to do that.

I do not hold unrealistic views about the x10's capabilities, then again, I don't feel compelled as some do to beat them over the head with their expert opinion. You have a particular post you want to debate, do it. But you don't have to collectively call them all out like you are the zen master of photography. Many do not care nor do they come here to be lectured.

If others find comfort in being your little lambs, good for them.

I could drone on like you do and tirelessly address each and every comment you have made here, but I won't. You get my point. One last thing, try saying more with less.

millsart wrote:
Interesting....

Well, while I certainly don't mean to give an air of superiority, I would say that in all fairness, given this is my profession, and that I've also worked as an instructor and magazine and newspaper editor in my career that I may know more and have more experience in this field and this industry than many.

That said, I find it interesting that you suggest this is such a boring thread. Why ? Because its based in fact and reality and realistic expectations ?

Do you really find threads where someone is whining about how bad the camera is because their expectations are way off base more "fun" ??

That what you enjoy ? Lots of screaming and arm waving by neophytes with little to no conceptual knowledge to back it up ?? That a good time on the internet forums ??

Seems this boring thread has gotten lots of responses, and even you took the time away from having fun elsewhere to post here, so how boring can it really be ??

Mind you that I never suggested everyone like the X10, that its perfect for everyone etc. Its not. I think it really only is a good choice for a small number of actual people, but its great for what it is, just as countless other cameras are.

Nothing wrong with not liking something, as long as its because of what is is.

Complaining on an sports car forum about how disapointing you are your new Corvette has no ground clearance and get stuck in the mud when you tried to take it on a Jeep trail is just a plain waste of time.

No one has to like a Corvette, or suggest everyone drive one etc, but to complain about the Vette as being so poor at something it was never made to do....well...

HDaRt wrote:

Some cameras capture the attention of photographers who have an idealized version of their perfect camera. And though some of their expectations may be a step or two away from realization, they are based on their knowledge and photographic experience, limited or otherwise.

"All these complaints about noise levels, lack of resolution etc. Its a small sensor point and shoot, what do people expect ??"

They have stated what they expect and even if they aren't always in touch with the limitations of technology they are entitled to have an opinion. Calling them out like you are the professor on advanced camera tech class changes nothing but conveys a position of self proclaimed superiority. Frankly, that's worse, and boring.

millsart wrote:

Do some people not realize this is a point and shoot camera and think its going to replace their Leica, DSLR, X100, m4/3 gear etc ??

Its "bigger" 2/3 sensor is really only about 10% or so bigger than than of the LX5, G12 and all the other premium compact.

Thats not going to make a huge difference in performance, nor DoF. Its still a small sensor and isn't going to come close to even APS-C, nor should anyone expect it to.

All this camera is is a very cool retro styled point and shoot with some really nice ergonomic direct controls, good (for a p&s) image quality, and a pretty nice fast zoom and an OVF thats usable, but nothing better than sticking an external finder on a LX5 or other cameras, aside from that it zooms, which is cool.

Thats is, its not going to replace a Leica, or be a poor man's Leica, or even a poor man X100 or any other camera.

All its going to be is a fun little point and shoot that handles really well and can take pictures that are good for a point and shoot.

Not going to a low light machine, not going to be a pro wedding shooters camera, not going to produce fine art 20X30" prints etc.

Its going to do the same roles you'd carry a G12, LX5, P7000 etc for, but with a bit more style and a nice interface.

I think its awesome for what it is, I handled one, loved it and have mine on order, but lets just have some sense of perspective here folks.

Remember, its just a point and shoot, treat it like one and you'll be happy. Think its going to allow you to sell off all your other gear, have a better sensor than a NEX5n or K5 etc is just silly.

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millsart
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Thats just it, its such deep DoF can't judge much really
In reply to noobdprseller, Nov 1, 2011

Thats just is though, you can clearly read the shop signs and also the shoppers clothing details are sharp etc. That means we've got enough DoF to go from where they are walking to the shops across the mall, so how do you know how well the camera was focusing ?

While Im sure its decent for what it is I highly doubt it would work for fast action or sports.

I've taken a Panasonic Gh2 with me to a few football games I was covering just to try it out, and its rather good for CDAF, but failed miserably for shooting action, just couldn't remotely keep up.

Sports photography has been my main source of income as well so its not really my inability to predict or follow the action either, camera just isn't up to it, nor is it meant to be.

I would be curious about the Nikon 1 though, with its PDAF system, that actually might really deliver, though of course you'd have issues with noise, not enough subject isolation, lack of long glass etc, but AF wise, it may be able to do the job

noobdprseller wrote:

Hello

F2.2 all of them. Also check the ficus integrity, accuracy of clothing colours on all the shoppers, skin tones, shop signs, wb.

Obv in a mall theres is nothing fast. As i wrote a few time i was testing it at CameraWorld.
With practice im sure X10 would do well at fast moving, sports.

X10 aint no Canon 1dmk4, for a compact it does very well.

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Arn
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Re: I suppose small sensor compact would be more correct, you are right
In reply to millsart, Nov 1, 2011

millsart wrote:

I use the term p&s, not in its operation, though it certainly will largely be used for more casual quick shooting overall I'd say, though thats neither here nor there.

You are right the correct term is probably small sensor compact, though I think largely when one says p&s most know the type of camera, and more so, the type of performance to expect.

But it's still definitely not a p&s and shouldn't be called so.

Its a stylish, funcuntional, perhaps slight step up from a LX5, G12 etc and thats it.

Yes. It is silly to compare a camera like this to cameras with APS-C sensors like some do.

Just kinda crazy and silly to take a "small sensor compact" and pixel peep over resolution, noise etc.

No, it's not. I believe that small sensor compacts can do wonderful things and I always try to get the best compact camera that I can. And I definitely peep their pixels, too.

If you care about those things to that extend, go for a NEX5n etc. Tons of great choices if IQ is that important.

Yurgh. The NEX-5n would be the worse choise in probably every way except image quality at higher ISO's. The X10 can be operated like a camera.

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noobdprseller
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X10 focus integrity
In reply to millsart, Nov 1, 2011

millsart wrote:

Thats just is though, you can clearly read the shop signs and also the shoppers clothing details are sharp etc. That means we've got enough DoF to go from where they are walking to the shops across the mall, so how do you know how well the camera was focusing ?

While Im sure its decent for what it is I highly doubt it would work for fast action or sports.

I've taken a Panasonic Gh2 with me to a few football games I was covering just to try it out, and its rather good for CDAF, but failed miserably for shooting action, just couldn't remotely keep up.

You would have to try X10 for yourself in the field.
Given its quite a bit smaller sensor than GH2, X10 cdaf will be faster.

:

I know how well X10 was focusing because i had quite a few duds before i realised i should be using face detect.

X10s focus integrity (how well it focuses) was impressive, accuracy of clothing coolur, skin tones. wb in difficult mall lighting was impressive.

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Humboldt Jim
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Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ?? Not
In reply to absentaneous, Nov 1, 2011

Spot on!

Unfortunately "point and shoot" is too often used in this forum to belittle cameras with a fixed lens and/or are RAW incapable and/or sensor smaller than 4/3 and/or not a dSLR, and their users. There are definitely point and shoot cameras that are designed almost exclusively for that purpose. If they do it well, they are good cameras.

Back when I used a totally manual film SLR I sometimes pre-set shutter speed, aperture and focus so I could just "point and shoot";-) What a concept!

HJ

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andrew_uk
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Re: Your "boring" thread got your attention and seems quite popular....
In reply to HDaRt, Nov 1, 2011

I concur; its an appeal to elitism of the most boring and patronising kind. People are not so thick that they will buy this camera and think they are going to catch a flying bullet in pin-sharp clarity but this 'is what it is', 'ok for the web' betrays an unpleasant 'what do the little people expect?' tedium.

Almost a decade ago I was shooting freelance for an advertising/PR agency, mostly with film, but I submitted a few assignments for a very well known prestige German car manufacturer with my first digital camera, a Minilta 7hi, shot in raw at ISO 100 and with the noise reduced in post production. They were very happy with the results and whilst due to the slow nature of the camera it was limited in use, it was capable of taking very good photographs.

I have little doubt I will be able to take great images with the X10 when I can get hold of one.

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HDaRt
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Re: advanced compacts can challenge photgraphic abilities
In reply to andrew_uk, Nov 1, 2011

Nicely illustrated point. There are times of which this may be one, wherein I seek the challenge of using a camera like the X10 to push my photography further.

When I look back over nearly ten years with digital cameras, some of my personal best captures were taken with a Nikon Coolpix 5700 5mp camera.

The x10 appears to be more capable to other advanced compacts I have used and I may own one shortly to give it try.

andrew_uk wrote:

I concur; its an appeal to elitism of the most boring and patronising kind. People are not so thick that they will buy this camera and think they are going to catch a flying bullet in pin-sharp clarity but this 'is what it is', 'ok for the web' betrays an unpleasant 'what do the little people expect?' tedium.

Almost a decade ago I was shooting freelance for an advertising/PR agency, mostly with film, but I submitted a few assignments for a very well known prestige German car manufacturer with my first digital camera, a Minilta 7hi, shot in raw at ISO 100 and with the noise reduced in post production. They were very happy with the results and whilst due to the slow nature of the camera it was limited in use, it was capable of taking very good photographs.

I have little doubt I will be able to take great images with the X10 when I can get hold of one.

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Daniel Lauring
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Re: Your "boring" thread got your attention and seems quite popular....
In reply to andrew_uk, Nov 1, 2011

The Minolta 7hi. I remember that camera. $1300 and 5Mp. I wanted one. A little newer than the Sony DSC-D700 I owned, with it's awesome 1.5Mp. A lot of people don't realize just how much better, than film, digital is now.

andrew_uk wrote:

a Minilta 7hi, shot in raw at ISO 100 and with the noise reduced in post production. They were very happy with the results and whilst due to the slow nature of the camera it was limited in use, it was capable of taking very good photographs.

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Midwest
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Re: Correction: X10 is...
In reply to photoforfun, Nov 2, 2011

photoforfun wrote:

...a revolutionary compact cam, not a point & shoot.

One day -not so far away-, any point and shoot will be better than my today pro DSLR.

And we will get into our zectron phase powered aerocoupes and transmogrify ourselves to planet Zero!

Seriously, no point and shoot is going to 'be better' nor even close to a pro DSLR of today because - well, for more reasons than I have time to say. I'll qualify that with 'not at any year any of us will live to see'.

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Sheld
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good alternative to the kit lens
In reply to millsart, Nov 2, 2011

millsart wrote:

Do some people not realize this is a point and shoot camera and think its going to replace their Leica, DSLR, X100, m4/3 gear etc ??

The Fuji X10 is a good alternative to a DSLR or m43rds with a kit lens, with comparable shallow dof, and perhaps even comparable low light ability. I've read that most DSLR owners only buy the kit lens. I'm not sure if that's really true or not, but until a DSLR/m43rds owner buys a second lens, I think the X10 is a competitive smaller alternative.

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Max Archer
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Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??
In reply to Barry Fitzgerald, Nov 2, 2011

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:

Of course it's a point and shoot a more upmarket one for sure but yes it's a p&s if you want to use that term.

And no I doubt many will get one to replace their DSLR (after all a DSLR's entire existence is mostly on the change the lens pull)

Some might get one to use for a more serious lighter take around camera which is exactly what the X10 is aimed at.

Which is exactly what I'm buying mine for. I went up to the mountains today to pick up my ski season pass, and while I was going I figured I should bring a camera and capture some fall color. That meant a large camera bag with the D3s, a flash, 24-70, and a 100mm 2.8. Carrying it around was a major pain in the rear. For the quick landscape snapshots I was doing, the X10 would have been perfect, and I wouldn't have had to carry all that crap.

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markg26
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Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??
In reply to Max Archer, Nov 2, 2011

I used to use my Leica M3 as a point and shoot. In bright sunlight: Tri-X, 1/250 at F16 set to max DOF. Then, just compose the image. Some of the all-time greats worked in that manner.

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