Dynamic Range -- what it is, what it's good for, and how much you 'need'

Started Oct 17, 2011 | Discussions
Great Bustard
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Dynamic Range -- what it is, what it's good for, and how much you 'need'
Oct 17, 2011

Seems that there's a lot of confusion (at least with some) about what DR (dynamic range) is and what it's good for. This purpose of this thread is to get this cleared up.

I'd like to begin with a rather stark example of what 13.7 stops of DR (D7000) offers over 11.2 stops of DR (5D2):

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=38379069

Let's continue with the definition of DR from three different sources (all of which say the same thing, just a bit differently):

Cambridge in Color:
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/dynamic-range.htm

Dynamic range in photography describes the ratio between the maximum and minimum measurable light intensities (white and black, respectively).

DxOMark:

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/About/In-depth-measurements/Measurements/Noise

Dynamic range is defined as the ratio between the highest and lowest gray luminance a sensor can capture. However, the lowest gray luminance makes sense only if it is not drowned by noise, thus this lower boundary is defined as the gray luminance for which the SNR is larger than 1. The dynamic range is a ratio of gray luminance; it has no defined unit per se, but it can be expressed in Ev, or f-stops.

Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range

Dynamic range, abbreviated DR or DNR,[1] is the ratio between the largest and smallest possible values of a changeable quantity, such as in sound and light.

Now, let me point to Part 1 of Uwe Steinmueller's outstanding HDR article which explains DR and demonstrates what wider DR can be used for:

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0478806851/the-art-of-hdr-photography-part-1

So, there you have it. What DR is and what it is useful for. Whether or not any particular photographer "needs" more DR than what they have with the system they are using is another matter entirely -- just like anything else (megapixels, AF speed, frame rate, etc, etc., etc.).

jim stirling
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Re: Dynamic Range -- what it is, what it's good for, and how much you 'need'
In reply to Great Bustard, Oct 17, 2011

Great Bustard wrote:

Seems that there's a lot of confusion (at least with some) about what DR (dynamic range) is and what it's good for. This purpose of this thread is to get this cleared up.

I'd like to begin with a rather stark example of what 13.7 stops of DR (D7000) offers over 11.2 stops of DR (5D2):

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=38379069

That really is a good example of some of the advantages of what wider DR allows. I don’t have the D7000 or any cameras with that sensor and I am happy to stick with mFT as a back up to my FF kit. I had seen the DR scores of the D7000 but must admit I was a bit sceptical about the result in reality. It makes one wonder what the next generation of FF cameras will be capable of.
Jim

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Great Bustard
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Re: Dynamic Range -- what it is, what it's good for, and how much you 'need'
In reply to jim stirling, Oct 17, 2011

jim stirling wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

Seems that there's a lot of confusion (at least with some) about what DR (dynamic range) is and what it's good for. This purpose of this thread is to get this cleared up.

I'd like to begin with a rather stark example of what 13.7 stops of DR (D7000) offers over 11.2 stops of DR (5D2):

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=38379069

That really is a good example of some of the advantages of what wider DR allows.

Striking, isn't it?

I don’t have the D7000 or any cameras with that sensor and I am happy to stick with mFT as a back up to my FF kit.

Absolutely. DR isn't the only measure of a system, after all.

I had seen the DR scores of the D7000 but must admit I was a bit sceptical about the result in reality. It makes one wonder what the next generation of FF cameras will be capable of.

I imagine that, at best, the DR will be the same, but likely still a little less -- that Sony Exmor sensor is rather amazing, and, so far as I know, Sony isn't making it in FF size.

In any event, contrary to "common wisdom", DR is not a function of sensor size (or pixel size).

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Nemianiu Skqergl
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unless
In reply to Great Bustard, Oct 17, 2011

Great Bustard wrote:

jim stirling wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

Seems that there's a lot of confusion (at least with some) about what DR (dynamic range) is and what it's good for. This purpose of this thread is to get this cleared up.

I'd like to begin with a rather stark example of what 13.7 stops of DR (D7000) offers over 11.2 stops of DR (5D2):

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=38379069

That really is a good example of some of the advantages of what wider DR allows.

Striking, isn't it?

I don’t have the D7000 or any cameras with that sensor and I am happy to stick with mFT as a back up to my FF kit.

Absolutely. DR isn't the only measure of a system, after all.

I had seen the DR scores of the D7000 but must admit I was a bit sceptical about the result in reality. It makes one wonder what the next generation of FF cameras will be capable of.

I imagine that, at best, the DR will be the same, but likely still a little less -- that Sony Exmor sensor is rather amazing, and, so far as I know, Sony isn't making it in FF size.

http://nikonrumors.com/2011/10/03/the-name-will-be-nikon-d800-the-sensor-will-be-36mp-99-probability.aspx/
16 x 2.25 = 36
14+log2(sqrt(3)) = 14.8

In any event, contrary to "common wisdom", DR is not a function of sensor size (or pixel size).

still, jim might be thinking of replacing his d3

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jim stirling
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Re: Dynamic Range -- what it is, what it's good for, and how much you 'need'
In reply to Great Bustard, Oct 17, 2011

Great Bustard wrote:

jim stirling wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

Seems that there's a lot of confusion (at least with some) about what DR (dynamic range) is and what it's good for. This purpose of this thread is to get this cleared up.

I'd like to begin with a rather stark example of what 13.7 stops of DR (D7000) offers over 11.2 stops of DR (5D2):

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=38379069

That really is a good example of some of the advantages of what wider DR allows.

Striking, isn't it?

I don’t have the D7000 or any cameras with that sensor and I am happy to stick with mFT as a back up to my FF kit.

Absolutely. DR isn't the only measure of a system, after all.

I had seen the DR scores of the D7000 but must admit I was a bit sceptical about the result in reality. It makes one wonder what the next generation of FF cameras will be capable of.

I imagine that, at best, the DR will be the same, but likely still a little less -- that Sony Exmor sensor is rather amazing, and, so far as I know, Sony isn't making it in FF size.

I was looking at some of the RAW files from the Sony NEX 5n if they had used that sensor in the Sony NEX 7 i think it would have made for a more appealing proposition. All the makers seem to manage to juggle their respective features just enough to prevent the perfect option. For mirrorless , I would like the body features of the NEX 7 { esp. the EVF} combined with the quality prime lenses from mFT land and the Nikon V1 looks to have upped the AF game , what’s my chances
Jim

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Great Bustard
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Re: unless
In reply to Nemianiu Skqergl, Oct 17, 2011

Nemianiu Skqergl wrote:

I imagine that, at best, the DR will be the same, but likely still a little less -- that Sony Exmor sensor is rather amazing, and, so far as I know, Sony isn't making it in FF size.

http://nikonrumors.com/2011/10/03/the-name-will-be-nikon-d800-the-sensor-will-be-36mp-99-probability.aspx/
16 x 2.25 = 36

That would be a thing, wouldn't it? Man, how I'd love to have that sensor!

In any event, contrary to "common wisdom", DR is not a function of sensor size (or pixel size).

still, jim might be thinking of replacing his d3

I don't think he would be able to afford it after he bought the rumored D800 and "necessary" lenses for me.

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jim stirling
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Re: unless
In reply to Nemianiu Skqergl, Oct 17, 2011

Nemianiu Skqergl wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

jim stirling wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

Seems that there's a lot of confusion (at least with some) about what DR (dynamic range) is and what it's good for. This purpose of this thread is to get this cleared up.

I'd like to begin with a rather stark example of what 13.7 stops of DR (D7000) offers over 11.2 stops of DR (5D2):

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=38379069

That really is a good example of some of the advantages of what wider DR allows.

Striking, isn't it?

I don’t have the D7000 or any cameras with that sensor and I am happy to stick with mFT as a back up to my FF kit.

Absolutely. DR isn't the only measure of a system, after all.

I had seen the DR scores of the D7000 but must admit I was a bit sceptical about the result in reality. It makes one wonder what the next generation of FF cameras will be capable of.

I imagine that, at best, the DR will be the same, but likely still a little less -- that Sony Exmor sensor is rather amazing, and, so far as I know, Sony isn't making it in FF size.

http://nikonrumors.com/2011/10/03/the-name-will-be-nikon-d800-the-sensor-will-be-36mp-99-probability.aspx/
16 x 2.25 = 36
14+log2(sqrt(3)) = 14.8

In any event, contrary to "common wisdom", DR is not a function of sensor size (or pixel size).

still, jim might be thinking of replacing his d3

The D3s/D3x models deliver great results {especially in their respective niches} and my main attraction in the D800 {long term rumoured :)} would be its smaller size. It would be nice if they could downsize the top tier bodies whilst retaining the features. I am getting older by the minute and would appreciate a lighter load; heck I have grey hairs in places i didn’t used to have hair

Jim

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Jolly Oly
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Re: Dynamic Range -- what it is, what it's good for, and how much you 'need'
In reply to Great Bustard, Oct 17, 2011

This thread should be in open talk, but looks like you have the need to lecture us, again..
You're pathetic.
--
cheers
JO

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Nemianiu Skqergl
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Re: unless
In reply to jim stirling, Oct 17, 2011

jim stirling wrote:

still, jim might be thinking of replacing his d3

The D3s/D3x models deliver great results {especially in their respective niches} and my main attraction in the D800 {long term rumoured :)} would be its smaller size. It would be nice if they could downsize the top tier bodies whilst retaining the features.

talk is d3x is going replaced by d800

I am getting older by the minute and would appreciate a lighter load; heck I have grey hairs in places i didn’t used to have hair

i have places where i didn't used to have places

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Nemianiu Skqergl
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Re: unless
In reply to Great Bustard, Oct 17, 2011

Great Bustard wrote:

still, jim might be thinking of replacing his d3

I don't think he would be able to afford it after he bought the rumored D800 and "necessary" lenses for me.

have you got something on him then?
did you get it off some old soldier?
if its motorbike pics its a fake

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jim stirling
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Re: unless
In reply to Nemianiu Skqergl, Oct 17, 2011

Nemianiu Skqergl wrote:

i have places where i didn't used to have places

Thanks for that image

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mrhodges2
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Re: Dynamic Range -- what it is, what it's good for, and how much you 'need'
In reply to Jolly Oly, Oct 17, 2011

Jolly Oly wrote:

This thread should be in open talk, but looks like you have the need to lecture us, again..
You're pathetic.

I'd like to raise a few of points:

1. There was a story told of a man that always complained about the baloney sandwiches that were packed in his lunch each day. One day a fellow co-worker suggested that he ask his wife to make him something else, to which his response was, "I would, but I make my OWN lunches". There may be a nugget of wisdom there that indirectly applies to your current complaint. It would seem to me that he is only lecturing those of us interested enough to click on this thread. Since that number includes you, why are you complaining?

2. Your use of the word "pathetic" to describe the OP begs the question of why are YOU here unless you subscribe to the "birds of a feather" doctrine.

3. If you are really serious about making sure that topics such as this one are not discussed in this forum, you seriously dropped the ball on this little 150 smasher:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1022&thread=39445047

Now, I agree that the OP did not specifically mention Olympus in his title and so may be slightly "pathetic", but for the same reasons as that thread was appropriate here, I think this one may be as well, especially in light of the fact that Oly cameras are said to have a slight handicap in that department.

4. Was the "Jolly" in your name a typo?

cheers
JO

5. Your use of the word, "cheers" directly after calling the OP pathetic was a bit of comic genius that made my day. THANKS!

Robert

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Great Bustard
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Didn't take long for an 'entertainment' post, did it?
In reply to Jolly Oly, Oct 17, 2011

Jolly Oly wrote:

This thread should be in open talk, but looks like you have the need to lecture us, again..

The reason this thread is here in 1022 rather than Open Talk is because this thread:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=39445047

How much Dynamic Range matter?

was in 1022, not Open Talk, and there were some who were rather confused about what DR is and how it's measured. No one seemed to object to the subject of DR when cooldragon started a thread on it here.

You're pathetic.

It's a pity that you have neither enough wit to have a conversation, nor enough sense to remain silent.

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Camp Freddy
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prickely subject in FT ...for 5DII and d3 owners too
In reply to Great Bustard, Oct 17, 2011

Oly users get all defensive and into avoidance. So GB can also have a call on this, here is my reply

YES a bit more DR would be appreciated in the format FT/mFT : it is apparently possible.

Why? Well noise is mentioned, also detail in the top of the quarter tones and the top of the shadows can contribute to realism in the image with depth and believable contrast, or the opposite in making an image which goes beyond what they eye would percieve at a glance.

Also being able to "push" a shot which was either under or over exposed if it is a killer frame ( some papparrazi have gone D7000 over d3 due to this ).

So you get a little more, but how often you need that is another call versus general ability and composition.

Who needs HDR would be a better title but a popcorn sport not for me.

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Great Bustard
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Re: prickely subject in FT ...for 5DII and d3 owners too
In reply to Camp Freddy, Oct 17, 2011

Camp Freddy wrote:

Oly users get all defensive and into avoidance. So GB can also have a call on this...

I'm well known as an advocate of FF, yet I began my post with an example of APS-C wiping the floor with FF. As I said, there is more to a system besides DR, but one would certainly hope that people could recognize when one system has an advantage over another and acknowledge it, even when the system with the advantage is not the system of choice for the person.

There's no reason that FF or 4/3 cannot have the same DR that the Sony Exmor sensor provides APS-C -- it's simply a matter of sensor tech, in this particular case.

here is my reply

YES a bit more DR would be appreciated in the format FT/mFT : it is apparently possible.

Why? Well noise is mentioned, also detail in the top of the quarter tones and the top of the shadows can contribute to realism in the image with depth and believable contrast, or the opposite in making an image which goes beyond what they eye would percieve at a glance.

Also being able to "push" a shot which was either under or over exposed if it is a killer frame ( some papparrazi have gone D7000 over d3 due to this ).

So you get a little more, but how often you need that is another call versus general ability and composition.

Yep.

Who needs HDR would be a better title but a popcorn sport not for me.

Having a wide DR lattitude in the capture is not only useful for HDR-like processing -- it simply allows a greater variety of tone curves to be "successfully" applied to the capture. Think of extended DR (as opposed to HDR) as giving more options in terms of the "art filters".

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Jolly Oly
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Re: Dynamic Range -- what it is, what it's good for, and how much you 'need'
In reply to mrhodges2, Oct 17, 2011

mrhodges2 wrote:

Robert

first - without too much philosophy here - we all know where this will lead us to, and yes that is pathetic.

second - from your recent activity here it's clearly evident that you're a mrGB's lawyer, and that is also pathetic. So to be clear, in my opinion both of you are just clowns performing the same (pathetic) show over and over again.
Have a nice day.
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JO

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boggis the cat
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What Joe's good for, and how much we don't need him
In reply to Great Bustard, Oct 18, 2011

Great Bustard wrote:

Seems that there's a lot of confusion (at least with some) about what DR (dynamic range) is and what it's good for. This purpose of this thread is to get this cleared up.

I'd like to begin with a rather stark example of what 13.7 stops of DR (D7000) offers over 11.2 stops of DR (5D2):

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=38379069

But wait, Joe, isn't it all about "total light"?

How is it that an APS-C system can out-perform a 135 system? The 135 system has more total light.

Oh, this must be an example of reality kicking theory square in the wedding tackle. Thanks for clearing that up.

So, there you have it. What DR is and what it is useful for.

Well, it's just as well you posted this, as I'm sure that nobody on the OSTF had any idea what DR was.

Clown.

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Great Bustard
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A prime example...
In reply to boggis the cat, Oct 18, 2011

...of why 1022 is the source of so much "entertainment" -- technical discussions are quickly trashed by ignorant entertainers.

boggis the cat wrote:

Seems that there's a lot of confusion (at least with some) about what DR (dynamic range) is and what it's good for. This purpose of this thread is to get this cleared up.

I'd like to begin with a rather stark example of what 13.7 stops of DR (D7000) offers over 11.2 stops of DR (5D2):

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=38379069

But wait, Joe, isn't it all about "total light"?

No, it isn't "all about total light", but total light, like DR, is an important consideration.

How is it that an APS-C system can out-perform a 135 system? The 135 system has more total light.

If you understood what DR was, then you'd not be confused on this point. Would you like me to explain to you how it works out? Specifically, why neither sensor size nor pixel size figures into the calculation of DR?

Oh, this must be an example of reality kicking theory square in the wedding tackle. Thanks for clearing that up.

More like a vivid example of you not understanding what DR is, how it's measured, and what it's useful for.

So, there you have it. What DR is and what it is useful for.

Well, it's just as well you posted this, as I'm sure that nobody on the OSTF had any idea what DR was.

Not the least of whom is yourself.

Clown.

The shoes fit you rather well. So, how about it -- do you want me to explain DR to you -- what it is, how it's measured, and what it's good for -- or would you rather just parade your ignorance in public?

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Great Bustard
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Re: Dynamic Range -- what it is, what it's good for, and how much you 'need'
In reply to Jolly Oly, Oct 18, 2011

Jolly Oly wrote:

mrhodges2 wrote:

Robert

first - without too much philosophy here - we all know where this will lead us to...

...and who will be leading us there.

...and yes that is pathetic.

I concur. A technical post on what DR is, how it is measured, and what it is useful for could only be considered "controversial" in 1022.

second - from your recent activity here it's clearly evident that you're a mrGB's lawyer, and that is also pathetic. So to be clear, in my opinion both of you are just clowns performing the same (pathetic) show over and over again.

Some opinions are "more equal" than others, however.

Have a nice day.

Information or entertainment -- I'm always good either way -- you've certainly made it abundantly clear which you prefer.

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mrhodges2
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Re: Dynamic Range -- what it is, what it's good for, and how much you 'need'
In reply to Jolly Oly, Oct 18, 2011

Jolly Oly wrote:

mrhodges2 wrote:

Robert

first - without too much philosophy here - we all know where this will lead us to, and yes that is pathetic.

You may know where this will lead us to, but apparently you would prefer to skip the WHY it will lead us there.

second - from your recent activity here it's clearly evident that you're a mrGB's lawyer, and that is also pathetic. So to be clear, in my opinion both of you are just clowns performing the same (pathetic) show over and over again.

What's pathetic is your inability to reason from cause to effect. GB is not the common denominator in my "law" practice, but rather people like you that are fond of being idiots, in threads that I happen to follow. If you or anyone else trashes a thread that I'm following, I'll respond, pro-bono, be it long time "troll" GB, or a brand new forum member.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=38968836

The pathetic part is that like some others here, apparently you have trouble distinguishing where the pathetic behavior started, in the case of the thread above, it was professor "Smiley" changing the subject from a person's OP on one topic to his assertion that the OP was a troll. In your case, it's you changing the subject from Dynamic Range to the issue of whether the OP's topic belongs in this forum, (a protest with merit, had you stopped there) and how pathetic you think the OP is. I responded to both of your comments with fair rebuttal, supporting my assertions with facts.

If your pointing out that the OP is "pathetic" is acceptable forum behavior, certainly pointing out how your patheticness managed to supersede his , complete with support for my opinion, can hardly be faulted. On the contrary though, like others of your ilk, you find it much easier to accuse me of being someone's lawyer rather than face the truth that your OWN behavior is unacceptable, and smacks of the same mentality that people use to defend prejudice, bigotry, racism and other forms of abusive behavior.

I'm an avid Olympus owner, and forum member, but one who hotly detests idiotic forum members giving this place a bad reputation. That's something that a troll will never be able to do. Only good upstanding members such as yourself have that power. (like ole' Boggis, demonstrating willful stupidity by totally ignoring the fact that GB qualified his position countless times with the stipulation of SAME SENSOR TECHNOLOGY)

But wait, Joe, isn't it all about "total light"?

How is it that an APS-C system can out-perform a 135 system? The 135 system > has more total light.

Oh, this must be an example of reality kicking theory square in the wedding
tackle. Thanks for clearing that up. emoticon - smile

Maybe more like deliberate selective memory.

Cheers, right back at ya', and you also have a nice day.

Robert

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