A strange Mirrorless Gear Journey

Started Aug 18, 2011 | Discussions
GregGory
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Re: A strange Mirrorless Gear Journey
In reply to Marco Cinnirella, Aug 18, 2011

Marco Cinnirella wrote:

I hadn't really heard any previous specualtion that the EPL1 has a weaker AA filter than the Pannie cams, but maybe it has.

It's not a question of having an AA filter as light as possible - or omitting it for that matter. The AA filter is an expensive part of the camera, it's there for a good reason. Having a 'too' weak AA filter results in 'fake' resolution. Panasonic has used a fairly light AA filter on its m43 cameras in general. Having a lighter AA filter than Panasonic is not necessarily something to strive for. The Leica M9 doesn't have an AA filter, which results in certain issues in processing.

I hear you on the superiority of thr APS-C sensor in the Sony cameras - I just can't get into their ergonomics ! And I'm a Sony fan in general.

I've read it all and seen the graphs, but when a take a look with my own eyes, I just don't see that much of a difference. Eg. pick the GH2 instead of the Fuji here:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusep3/page23.asp

Up to 3200 there doesn't seem to much of a difference between the NEX5 and the GH2 (roughly same generation). The handling issues with Sony will probably be sorted out with the NEX7, so I wouldn't use that argument against them, the availability of lenses (or the lack hereof) and Sony spreading its resources too thinly across FF, APS-c, and NEX is my primary concern. Nevertheless, the EVIL market is still in its infancy, one has to reassess the market situation every now an then.

AdamT wrote:

I had an EP1 for 1.5 Years, really liked it and added a G1 early 2010 and then GH1 also a year ago . liked all of them actually - I was never really impressed with the Oly Kit lens (on any body) or the Panny 45-200 in size or long end sharpness (though its OK for the price) but the Panny 14-45 and 20mm were absolute Gems ---

The GH1 replaced the G1, then finally mid October last year the NEX5 Dual Kit replaced the lot because I wanted the better high ISO performance (the NEX is better than the GH1 even with no banding), AVCHD Video and that tiny 16mm lens all in one camera & simpler rig . My sample of the 18-55 NEX is every bit as good as the old panny 14-45 and my 16mm is a top sample too . the NEX (now nearly out of warranty) is a firm keeper for the forseeable future.

What I did do was keep the 14-45 Panny lens and now Oly have launched an affordable 45mm F1.8 & Panny a 14mm F2.5 , adding a M43 cam looked interesting again and as EPL1s are almost Free thesedays, I bought a used one boxed as new with the kit lens for £210 from a dealer (why pay an extra £80) , I didn't want the body only as it's harder to sell later on and I really don't want to part with that panny 14-45. the Family can use the EPL1 as well as me with the new primes when I get them.

Anyway a few things I'm seeing are puzzling .. this is all using RAW and the same RAW converter, Capture one V5

1:- the EPL1 is sharper than the G1 and GH1 with same lens (Panny 14-45) , quite a bit sharper in fact - I was expecting it to be the same. Moire is worse - it may even be a tad sharper than the NEX5 even and up to the old D70 AA weakness !!

2:- the EPL1 is a LOT more sharper than the EP1 than I remember at the time, I knew there was a difference, thought it was a lot less than this

3:- the Pan lens is wider and Vigs more on the EPL1 than I ever remember it doing EP1 (Weird that) I expected it to be compared to the Panny cams as C1 must correct .. it's like a 12-40

4:- the plastic mount version of the MK1 Kit lens is a lot sharper than the old EP1 version even taking AA filter into account , in fact it's TACK sharp wideopen and Matches the Panny at the wide end ! . my old EP1 one was as good as anyone elses and had no decentering issues or anything.

5:- Noise levels at ISO200 seem a lot better than the EP1 , in fact I found the EP1 very noisy at ISO200 in skies , the EPL1 doesn't seem as bad

6:- I always ran the EP1 at ISO200 as DR was severely compromised at ISO100 - but the Pannys were fine at ISO100 - I've not checked the EPL1 at ISO100 and was wondering how others found them ?

I love the RAW+JPG button (better known as the Movie button) - shame it can't be set to AEL as it's better placed than the Func Button . love the dedicated Mag button too though its easy to hit when resting the thumb ..

I don't miss the Crappy Arrowpad Command dial, in fact I prefer the press the + - button and use the cursors to fiddling with that horrid thing (so an EPL2 wasn't the answer after all - LOL) I DO Miss the lovely Rollerdial though .. the Built in flash in use is no where near as impressive as the mechanism which activates it - what an Anticlimax , I'm sure even our SX220 twinkles brighter . Thankfully I still have an FL36 .

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GregGory
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Re: A strange Mirrorless Gear Journey
In reply to AdamT, Aug 18, 2011

AdamT wrote:

it's better than the Pentax, original non-IS canon, the Oly 14-42 ZD and way better than the Sony SAM Alpha 18-55 by miles . I'd put this sample on a par with the Panny 14-45 at the wide end for edge to edge sharpness at 3.5 and softer at the long end as you'd expect (the Panny is famous for its 45mm performance)

IMO, m43 is not about absolute IQ performance, but IQ/bulk. In this regard, it excels. The mZD 14-42 is a perfectly good offering for its bulk and cost. Those people who complain about its performance, have probably not had too much experience with other kit lens offerings in the market..

since the 'base' ISO 100 would be an electronically 'faked' ISO 50. DXO mark clearly shows this. But Oly hasn't been the only one in history to do this.

Yeah, funny part is that Panasonic did it big time with the LX3 !

Overrating the ISO in general is not the same as 'faking' the base ISO. If you check out the LX3 vs. EP1 at DXO, you'll see Oly and Panasonic overrated the ISO exactly the same fashion, but Oly also 'faked' a base ISO. IOW going form ISO 100 to 200 with the Oly the absolute DR stays the same, but one stop of highlight headroom is gained at ISO 200 (at the expense of shadow DR). This is of course quite silly, since base ISO is normally used in daylight, where headroom is usually quite important. Maybe the metering/ contrast curve effectively compensates for this (in JPG), but I believe a reputable mfg. like Oly should at least warn about this, since users expect the 'base' ISO to have the greatest DR.

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kenw
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ACR does just as well as RT...
In reply to GregGory, Aug 18, 2011

GregGory wrote:

Only RawTherapee seems to be able to extract Panasonic RAW files to look their best: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=39074378

That was a flawed comparison. It used the default ACR settings which don't use deconvolution sharpening. Setting Detail to 100 in ACR/LR uses deconvolution sharpening and gets very similar results to RT which also uses deconvolution sharpening:

RT does have a wider selection of demosaicing algorithms and you can definitely eek out a little more detail with careful tuning in RT. That said, the comparison and conclusions drawn in that thread were bogus because of the wildly different sharpening settings used in the ACR and RT images. RT can be a bit better to be sure but the difference is rather small and nothing like the exaggerated examples in that thread.
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SaltLakeGuy
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How can you get LR to do Deconvolution Sharpening?
In reply to Marco Cinnirella, Aug 18, 2011

I'd love to hear about THIS

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SaltLakeGuy
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Interesting Adam
In reply to AdamT, Aug 18, 2011

One of the reasons I gave up on Sony was I didn't find ANY lenses that gave me the kind of shear resolution I have become accustomed to via both Oly AND Panasonic. I'm shocked to hear of your satisfaction of the NEX in general. Most of the Images I've seen from those were like plastic to my eyes, and the rest of the line uses way too much on processor noise reduction to a fault.

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kenw
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Re: How can you get LR to do Deconvolution Sharpening?
In reply to SaltLakeGuy, Aug 18, 2011

SaltLakeGuy wrote:

I'd love to hear about THIS

Move the Detail slider to 100.

This was a change from LR2/ACR5 to LR3/ACR6. In the old versions Detail 100 was essentially USM without thresholding or halo protection. Now it is deconvolution sharpening at the 100 end. In between values blend deconvolution and USM techniques. This according to Eric Chan from Adobe in postings on the Adobe forums and Luminous Landscape forums. From my limited testing it certainly seems to be true.

I'm guessing that for old photos imported from LR2 libraries you'd need to change to Process 2010 for this to be true.
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SaltLakeGuy
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Re: A strange Mirrorless Gear Journey
In reply to GregGory, Aug 18, 2011

Aside from the fact I've worked with the NEX and SLT's and ultimately gave up on them as I really wasn't getting the shear resolution (like you describe from the PL1 and I owned one of those so I know) that I was used to. The G3 IS delivering that type of results thus far with all the lenses I acquired. I'm not into the "legacy" thing just native lenses thanks. The idea of this huge bulky lens on a tiny body doesn't work for me typically. Even my 100-300 on the G3 is at least a reasonable match compared to what NEX is doing. Like putting a 450 engine in a Pinto. No thanks..

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jkrumm
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vignetting
In reply to AdamT, Aug 18, 2011

Remember, m43 is designed to automatically correct vignetting and other lens problems both in jpeg and in raw programs follow the standard. So if you see a wider, more vignetted raw in Capture One, that means it likely is not automatically correcting things, at least with that camera/lens combo. Compare it to a jpeg and there should be a difference.

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AdamT
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Re: Interesting Adam
In reply to SaltLakeGuy, Aug 18, 2011

I'm shocked to hear of your satisfaction of the NEX in general. Most of the Images I've seen from those were like plastic to my eyes, and the rest of the line uses way too much on processor noise reduction to a fault.

I only shoot RAW and use capture one, the detail is phenomenal ,especially with sharp M42 lenses but suprisingly so with the two kit ones . the 18-55 is as good as the Panny 14-45 , better than the 14-42 - or the one I have is anyway and the IS in the lens is to die for (better than canon and nikon's cheapo plastic kit zoom IS and I'd say better than the Panny 14-42/45 too) . Of course, DR and high ISO performance is a given benefit with these new Sony APS sensors

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GregGory
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Re: ACR does just as well as RT...
In reply to kenw, Aug 18, 2011

kenw wrote:

RT does have a wider selection of demosaicing algorithms and you can definitely eek out a little more detail with careful tuning in RT. That said, the comparison and conclusions drawn in that thread were bogus because of the wildly different sharpening settings used in the ACR and RT images. RT can be a bit better to be sure but the difference is rather small and nothing like the exaggerated examples in that thread.

I'm please to see this, I am an LR user since I prefer the speed/ reliability of LR compared to RT. Nevertheless a lot of credit goes to Gabor and his team of developers. This new feature in LR is probably thanks to their freebie/ donation ware, which kept whipping the butt of Adobe (in terms of resolution) for years.

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AdamT
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Re: vignetting
In reply to jkrumm, Aug 18, 2011

So if you see a wider, more vignetted raw in Capture One, that means it likely is not automatically correcting things, at least with that camera/lens combo. Compare it to a jpeg and there should be a difference.

yeah, I know this , I jist thought it was weird that the correction was happening with the EP1/Panny combo but not with the EPL1 ..... the Upshot is that I've got about a 25/26mm FOV - and DO have PT lens

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kenw
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Re: ACR does just as well as RT...
In reply to GregGory, Aug 18, 2011

GregGory wrote:

I'm please to see this, I am an LR user since I prefer the speed/ reliability of LR compared to RT.

I'm in the same boat. Prior to LR3 and "Process 2010" I was always looking longingly at other converters detail and noise processing but I still made the trade off for the LR workflow. Since "Process 2010" I feel like I'm giving up a lot less.

Nevertheless a lot of credit goes to Gabor and his team of developers. This new feature in LR is probably thanks to their freebie/ donation ware, which kept whipping the butt of Adobe (in terms of resolution) for years.

Most definitely! True for RPP as well (Mac only). I'm really curious to watch what RT and RPP start to be able to do with floating point processing and cameras like the K5 which have incredibly low read noise compared to something like ACR/LR that uses fixed point algorithms optimized for speed.

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GregGory
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I still don't get this NEX superior sensor stuff
In reply to AdamT, Aug 18, 2011

AdamT wrote:

Of course, DR and high ISO performance is a given benefit with these new Sony APS sensors

I agree about the superiority of the Sony sensors in some DSLRs, eg. the Nikon 5100 (where a different read-out tech is being used), but for the NEX 5 I don't see any significant difference. Neither at DXO:

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/ (appareil1) 698%7C0 (appareil2) 652%7C0 (appareil3) 630%7C0 (onglet) 0 (brand) Nikon (brand2) Sony (brand3) Panasonic

nor here at DPR (substituting for the Fuji):

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusep3/page23.asp

I'm wondering, where do you see any significant difference between the GH2 and the NEX 5 (below ISO 6400)?

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AdamT
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Re: I still don't get this NEX superior sensor stuff
In reply to GregGory, Aug 18, 2011

I'm wondering, where do you see any significant difference between the GH2 and the NEX 5 (below ISO 6400)?

Dunno, I've never used a GH2 - the GH1 was a good full stop better than any other M43 camera though (at time of ownership mid to end 2010)

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Thanks Ken!
In reply to kenw, Aug 20, 2011

I've recently changed to Lightroom 3 from Capture one and absolutely love it.

The only part I was struggling with a little was the sharpening settings - particularly the detail slider (which was foreign to me) for landscape images.

I tried your settings and they look great - really appreciate the tip!
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stimmer
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That was rude....Adam knows his photography..
In reply to tomasl77, Aug 20, 2011

I thought that is pretty interesting. What I get out of it is that all cameras are good at something, but they all leave someone to be desired as well.

Epl1 is a hugely powerful performer for the money. No doubt about that.

I bought the ep3 specifically to mate the 45mm and possibly 12 to it at some point. Imot sure if Thom Hogan had anything to do with it but he was talking about how much they needed primes at those focal lengths, and darned if they didn't do it.

Adam, enjoyed the story. There are a lot of people who have done the same.

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stimmer
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Agreed about the new kit lens
In reply to beomagi, Aug 20, 2011

It is very smooth in operation. Silent fast autofocus, small, looks good, and very sharp.

Sure I'd like it to be faster, but with the 20mm and other fast primes it fits in nice.

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stimmer
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Dpreview says you are wrong...
In reply to GregGory, Aug 20, 2011

They are not faking iso speed. They are pretty much right on with what might light meter reads.

Light meters don't lie.

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GregGory
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Re: Dpreview says you are wrong...
In reply to stimmer, Aug 20, 2011

stimmer wrote:

They are not faking iso speed. They are pretty much right on with what might light meter reads.

Light meters don't lie.

Explain what you mean, I don't have the time to start guessing.
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Guy Parsons
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About 100 ISO and E-PL1
In reply to GregGory, Aug 20, 2011

GregGory wrote:

.........but I believe a reputable mfg. like Oly should at least warn about this, since users expect the 'base' ISO to have the greatest DR.

They do warn users, the E-PL1 manual on page 41 they say "Choose ISO 100 when reducing noise is more important than enhancing dynamic range."

Regards......... Guy
E-PL1 info.... http://homepages.tig.com.au/~parsog/olyepl1/01-epl1-menu.html

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