Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.

Started Jul 29, 2011 | Discussions
Ma55l
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to lucas vda, Jul 29, 2011

Hi Lucas,

You and I are on the same page. You are the first that has indicated that they think a larger sensor might be the case.

When I want to know why something happens or will happen I always say follow the money trail.

Sony already owns the 24 MP FF sensor and tweaking it with software and some minor manufacturing changes could inexpensively yield a 24 MP FF sensor with low noise characteristics. However redesigning an entirely new sensor with mammoth noise reduction would be vastly more expensive. So why not a FF sensor. All their signature Zeiss lenses are FF.

But as pointed out by a few people the kit lens is APS. But that in no way has any bearing of what size sensor is used in the A77. FF and APS could be used in the same camera eittoggled by the most inexpensive software changes as there is no glass pentaprism finder. In fact the Nikon D700 and D3X have masks built into the optical finders for just such a purpose. How much easier would that be with the A77 if it were FF. And what a great idea it would present.

But we will find out soon enough. Personally I love to postualte and think about the future benefits of the science of cameras.

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tbcass
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You're way off base
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

Ma55l wrote:

Could this be because there might be a bigger than APS sensor present. I am suspicious that this is the case.

No. Many people like the look and feel of a larger camera. Also a larger body gives more room for buttons and a larger LCD.

The second point is that Sony notoriously has poor sensor noise.

Not any more as the latest Sony cameras are among the best with low sensor noise.

We know that smaller pixels increase low light noise. So if the rumors are correct about the iso will be 104,000 I would not think the tiny photosites of a 24 MP sensor in APS realestate, could gather enought light to give that sort of performance - but a full size 24MP sensor might.

That may be true but it let's wait and see if iso 104,000 rumor is true and if it is will it be any good. On the one hand you believe some rumors but doubt the rumors that the camera uses an APS-C sensor.

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Ma55l
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Re: Pixel Size
In reply to Robsphoto, Jul 29, 2011

Hi,

My calculations were on the fly and approximate and very close to what you got. Those were only to show a commentor that the "pixel size in a 24 MP APS sensor is only slightly smaller than on a 24 MP FF sensor". That is clearly not the case.

The fact that the A77 could have a FF sensor is not contraindicated by the fact that the klit lens is an APS variety as only the Canon FF canot use APS on their FF platform - the mirror will hit the back of the lenses. So for instance my Nikon D700 can use both formats and black out the peripheral areas for the APS sizes. I believe the D3X does the same thing. How much easier would that change be with a software defined EVF or LCD.

But time will tell. I will be happy with either size sensor as long as there is a micro adjust feature on the A77 as many of my lenses focus differently. What is the purpose of spending $1500 on a lens if it can only be as sharp as a $200 lens because critical focus cannot be achieved because of backfocus or front focus problems.

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Ma55l
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to El Profe, Jul 29, 2011

Hi,
You have made a critical error in thinking about the MP of a sensor.

You are correct that an 8 Mp sensor will yield retina sharp images on an 8x10 format at 14 inches from the eye with normal vision. (Retina sharp means that increasing the definition/resolution of the inage cannot be appreciated by a normal eye at that distance).

However what DXO site and you are not appreciating is cropping an image. With an 8 mp sensor and printing to an 8x10 image you will see less sharpness when you crop. Not so with a 24 MP sensor.

Does that yield better photos - you can bet your bottom dollar that it does as cropping can and often improves an image. With a larger sensor you can crop more and get no loss in resolution to your naked eye on the print. You can cut distractions out and make for better placement. It also acts as a lossless (on an 8x10 print) means of magnifying your main topic. For instance have a bird be made 50% larger to fill the page without loosing quality - almost like having a sort of zoom. That yields a lot of artistic flexibility and gives room for improvement. So higher MP does matter.

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Cetonid
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

Ma55l wrote:

But why make the A77 bigger @ 5.4 inches over the A55 at 4.9 inches with that size differential being able to support a FF sensor inside. If they increase the size of the camera and place an APS sensor in it they would waste the space savings delievered by the SLT design.

I've picked up the A55 and it's too small to hold and access functions quickly and comfortably. Many people find the ergonomice of this size better. My A350 is actually too small and my palm changes settings on the keypad while normally gripping.

But there is more...

Since it has a magnesium subframe, skinning the frame with more plastic will make it a little bigger. From all indication, it appears to be the size of an A5xx, but with a lower profile hump on top due to lack of pentamirror. I would guess a FF SLT would grow about 1/4" in height and width from the A77 proto.

Of course, the most obvious is that Sony said the A77 is the A700 replacement.

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Ma55l
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to rinkos, Jul 29, 2011

Hi,
Much of what you say is true and I agree except for one point.

A full frame A77 could use either APS or FF lenses. The Nikon D700 and D3X do that now and there is a mask built into the pentaprism which is automatically brought up with the APS lenses. In the same way - Sony could do the exact same thing without making the image smaller in the EVFas is the case with the glass finders. And it would be vastly cheaper in the software and take up no additional space. So a FF sensor for the Sony being compatible with each lens platform is a snap. On the other hand Canon cannot do that since their mirror will hit the back of an APS lens on their FF cameras.

So if your were fortunate enough to have a Sony 850 or 900 just place an APS lens on the mount and shoot. When you come home and process the photos just crop out the vignetted areas. simple as that - But not for Canon.

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Ma55l
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Re: You're way off base
In reply to tbcass, Jul 29, 2011

Hi,

I mentioned elsewhere on this thread that the 104,000 could be incorrect. I cannot retype that into every answer and post.

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Alpha Jack
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

I wish, but no way. There is more evidence that it is not FF than your observations. Biggest evidence is the new kit lens. It is a DT. Second evidence is price. I know that is still rumor and seems to go up every month, but it would have to get > 1.5k USD to support your speculation.
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sye46
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

Ma55l wrote:

So if your were fortunate enough to have a Sony 850 or 900 just place an APS lens on the mount and shoot. When you come home and process the photos just crop out the vignetted areas. simple as that - But not for Canon.

FYI, You don't have to crop out the vignetted areas, The A850/A900 has a setting to switch to APS-C capture. So if you use a APS-C lens, the camera will crop it for you.

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OldClicker
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Re: Oh, oh, are you in trouble...
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

Ma55l wrote:

Re believeing Sony - do you remember how long it took the Japanese to admit that the power plant failure was the worst in history?

Just to keep things in perspective, Fukushima isn't even on the same scale as Chernobyl. - TF

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TrojMacReady
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Re: Oh, oh, are you in trouble...
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

Ma55l wrote:

Hi,

Thanks for being a gentleman when telling me that the A900 is not discontinued. You are correct theoritically, however if you go to the Sony site - they are back ordered - with a two month date of Sept 2011 before you can order one. I do not believe they are selling many and they may in effect be discontinued.

I think you're basing your theory on too many assumptions. I remember people saying the same when the camera was backordered in the US for some time well over a year ago. It turned out false too. Second, the USA is a relatively small market on a global scale these days (less than 16%). The A900 can still be bought directly from Sony in tons of other countries. It doesn't make any sense to officially state the A850 being discontinued and at the same time lie about the A900 still being in production when it's discontinued too.

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cgarrard
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Somehow I'm positive it won't be a full frame sensor. N/t
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

no text is really disappointing hah
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TrojMacReady
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

There is no such thing as outresolving a lens in practise. There is no hard limit, but a sloping one. I remember reading comments like those above when the cheapest and worst (kit)lenses were being tested on 8 mp bodies. The lenses already showed clear weaknesses, especially at wider apertures and in corners. But even those lenses showed a clear improvement when tested on 15mp bodies at every aperture and even in those weaker corners. See for example Photozone tests.

If my compact with its compromised superzoomlens can deliver tack sharp images in raw that come close to those from my 12mp DSLR at pixel level (in good light obviously) paired with a 50 prime, then I think we should put those theories about extra pixels on aps-c DSLR's being a waste above say 18mp, to bed. Especially with the knowledge that the compact mentioned has a pixeldensity similar to > 110mp on aps-c.

But more on topic, the main problem with your theory is the crop effect with DT lenses. Sony says it's a successor to the A700, operating in the same class. Which means lots of existing DT users and people interested in good but often affordable DT lenses (think the new 35mm and 50mm primes for example). But on a suggested FF body, they would in effect end up with quite a but less resolution than current entry level SLT bodies. For people mostly shooting with crop lenses, that makes very little sense. So they would bave to position themselves higher and cater FF lens users mostly. A different class from A700 I would say.

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TrojMacReady
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

Ma55l wrote:

Even with your thinking - assuming that Sony is capable of equalling the low light performance of the best APS cameras then there is a four stop difference in regaard to size and max performance of others. That is hard for me to believe in this current very competitive area.

The difference between 25k and 100k is 2 stops. Probably achieved mostly through better (more) stacking of images. Don't look at single pixel performance when comparing sensors because the amount of photons captured is mostly the same (just differently spread).

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tbcass
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Re: You're way off base
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

Ma55l wrote:

Hi,

I mentioned elsewhere on this thread that the 104,000 could be incorrect. I cannot retype that into every answer and post.

That's OK but there's no way I'll read any more than a couple posts in this thread.

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Tom

Look at the picture, not the pixels

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TrojMacReady
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

Ma55l wrote:

Thanks for the comment,

So far if that is confirmed and true you have made the best point for the APS size yet. Good work.
However has any one seen this lens yet in person - or only rumors???

Going by the same rumors (pictures) you base your theories on.
A FF kit covering anything near that range and aperture would be much larger.

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TrojMacReady
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

Because you end up with little over 10MP. Nowhere near competitive at this point, let alone in 2 years towards the end of lifecycle.

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rhlpetrus
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Does anyone know about MP count? Or number of bits?
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 30, 2011

That's still unknown, right? My bet is APS-C, market is much larger for that. In any case, I hope it uses the recent D7k/K5 sensor tech, 14 bits and all, or better.

Let's not forget the D7k/K5's sensor technology is at least 1.5 year old, since there were D7k's sample images in the Nikon site dating from early 2010, even if camera was launched only in the second semester. That means Sony had more than a year after that to develop the new sensor, so it could be evn better than that. Some say it'll arrive in a Nikon D400 next month and that it is 24MP.
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tom
tom
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 30, 2011

Ma55l wrote:

Hi,

I believe the the 850 and 900 are discontinued - so there is no other full frame in production at present for Sony.

One more point - if they used the old 24 MP sensor from the 850 or 900 with changes in the software they might be able to tweak it for better performance. They would not have to redesign a new sensor in that case.

But why make the A77 bigger @ 5.4 inches over the A55 at 4.9 inches with that size differential being able to support a FF sensor inside. If they increase the size of the camera and place an APS sensor in it they would waste the space savings delievered by the SLT design.

Quite a few people have complained that the A55 is too small for them. So while small may be a trend, it is not the be all end all. Additionally, the people who have been calling for a replacement for the A700 want a camera with external controls, not just menus. That takes space. If Sony was intending to release a 7 series model as a FF camera I'm pretty sure that they would not have talked about an advance amateur APS-C camera for the past couple of years, but would have made a big deal about it, particularly at the rumored price.

Also since there are still new A850 and A900 available for sale, I don't think that Sony needs to replace them just yet even if they are actually out of production. But there have been no new 7 series APS-C cameras available for a while now.

tom

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PC Wheeler
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 30, 2011

What you speculate does not trump what Sony execs have already announced.

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