Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.

Started Jul 29, 2011 | Discussions
Ma55l
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Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
Jul 29, 2011

I have noted that most people on the rumor nets believe that the A77 will be APS sensor size however I would like to question that - as I feel there is evidence that it will be full frame. Let me explain.

The Sony A55 camera is 4.9 inches side to side. The Sony A700 is 5.4 inches side to side. That can be confirmed by doing some geometry using the display size as 3 inches corner to corner diagonally and then doing the math.

So it seems that leaving out the mirror mechanics for the mirror to swing up and out of the way decreases the size of the body. In addition there is no need for space for the mirror motor. That is likely the reason that the A55 is 4.9 inches and the A700 5.4 inches. The difference side to side is one half inch or 12.5 mm.

The difference in the size of a FF frame sensor in comparison to an APS is 9 or 10 mm. So why would Sony make the camera 1/2 inch bigger when smaller is the trend and the space dictated would be less without the mirror motor and rails for the mirror to swing?

Could this be because there might be a bigger than APS sensor present. I am suspicious that this is the case.

The second point is that Sony notoriously has poor sensor noise. We know that smaller pixels increase low light noise. So if the rumors are correct about the iso will be 104,000 I would not think the tiny photosites of a 24 MP sensor in APS realestate, could gather enought light to give that sort of performance - but a full size 24MP sensor might.
Any comments?

RichV
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

I don't believe it would be FF, as:

It would change the A7 line (7D and A700) AND it would indicate that Sony won't compete in the advanced midrange arena. Sony's got enough FF bodies with the A8-9 models, while it's got nothing in APSC that can be considered an advanced/enthusiast body. The sub-$1k camera buyers need to know they can move into something better while retaining the value of their APS-C-sized lenses (i.e. that they weren't throwing their money away).

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ianimal
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No still need for APS-C pro. body
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

No no no.

Just as the Nikon D400 also gone be APS-C.

There are still alot difference between APS-C and FF.
So there is still a big need for a near pro. APS-C body from Sony.
Just as Nikon must soner or later release a new D300s, and the rumors say
it will be named D400 (if I am not wrong).

We expect Sony to release new FF cameras later, at least one model maybe two.

Time will tell.

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Ma55l
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

Hi, I forgot to mention that the A77 side to side is 5.4 inches or 1/2 inch larger than the A55 and is the same size side to side as the A700.

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OldClicker
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

Ma55l wrote:

Hi, I forgot to mention that the A77 side to side is 5.4 inches or 1/2 inch larger than the A55 and is the same size side to side as the A700.

You do know that the A700 is also APS, not FF, right? - TF

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zackiedawg
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

Ma55l wrote:

The difference in the size of a FF frame sensor in comparison to an APS is 9 or 10 mm. So why would Sony make the camera 1/2 inch bigger when smaller is the trend and the space dictated would be less without the mirror motor and rails for the mirror to swing?

You might be missing the possibility that enthusiasts and experienced shooters who use many different lenses, of which many are large and heavy, prefer a larger, more solid body with lots of exterior control...so while 'small' is a trend in entry-level or consumer grade goods, it might be just the opposite in enthusiast level gear. I personally dislike the small bodies, and would prefer an APS-C camera with a large grip and substantial body.

The second point is that Sony notoriously has poor sensor noise.

Sony doesn't notoriously have poor sensor noise - that hasn't been the case for many years now. You are going back too far in history - since the A550 sensor, Sony has actually been at the top of the game in sensor noise, and currently produces the lowest noise sensors on the market (ie: the 16MP sensor in the A580/D7000/K5).

We know that smaller pixels increase low light noise. So if the rumors are correct about the iso will be 104,000 I would not think the tiny photosites of a 24 MP sensor in APS realestate, could gather enought light to give that sort of performance - but a full size 24MP sensor might.

as technology advances, things that weren't possible before become possible. There once was a time when a 5MP APS-C sensor struggled to perform at ISO3200. Now they're all the way up to 16-20MP, and routinely and comfortably shooting at ISO6400 or more. Improvements in the technology and the processing have made a huge difference...there's no knowing what a 24MP APS-C sensor can do until it's released and tested. But given the ability of current 16MP sensors at up to ISO12800, it's not too much of a stretch to see a newer sensor push up to a usable ISO25600 or even 51200...the camera may be rated to 102,400, but they always rate cameras a stop or two higher than they can really usably go. Realistically, the rumors would suggest a 1-2 stop improvement over current sensor ISO ability.

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sye46
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

i don't believe this because there is no (SR4) or (SR5) in front of the post.

if you edit your post and put (SR5) in front, it will be true and everyone will believe.

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Ma55l
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to RichV, Jul 29, 2011

Hi,

I believe the the 850 and 900 are discontinued - so there is no other full frame in production at present for Sony.

One more point - if they used the old 24 MP sensor from the 850 or 900 with changes in the software they might be able to tweak it for better performance. They would not have to redesign a new sensor in that case.

But why make the A77 bigger @ 5.4 inches over the A55 at 4.9 inches with that size differential being able to support a FF sensor inside. If they increase the size of the camera and place an APS sensor in it they would waste the space savings delievered by the SLT design.

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Ma55l
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Re: No still need for APS-C pro. body
In reply to ianimal, Jul 29, 2011

Hi,

No one knows for sure. I am only asking why make an APS SLT camera the same size as the old A700 and throw away the space savings of the SLT design. In addition would it not be more cost effective to tweak the old 24MP sensor to very low light performance rather than designing an entire new sensor with the smallest pixels in the industry and the highest ISO for low light. All that just leads me to doubt the APS sensor rumors.

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El Profe
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

Nice try, but the A77 and NEX-7 are still going to APS-C size sensors. The Full-frame sensor one is the A99.

You need more proof... The new 16-50 F2.8 lens is APS-C only. Not FF compatible.

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Ma55l
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to OldClicker, Jul 29, 2011

Hi Yes,

And that is why I see a discrepancy. The a700 (APS) is 1/2 inch larger that the A55 APS. SLT cameras should be smaller than the mirrored cameras. The A77 from the photos given and my calculations (based on the diagonal of the LCD) show the A77 to be the same size as the A700 but it should be smaller - unless there was a FF sensor inside. In that case the camera is the perfect size.

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cyainparadise
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Oh, oh, are you in trouble...
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

Ma55l wrote:

Hi,

I believe the the 850 and 900 are discontinued - so there is no other full frame in production at present for Sony.

The A900 is not discontinued, and the Sony Fanboys are going to jump all over you for that error, just as they did me, when I made the same mistake.

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sye46
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

Ma55l wrote:

Hi,

I believe the the 850 and 900 are discontinued - so there is no other full frame in production at present for Sony.

A900 is NOT discontinued.

You can still buy it from Sony

http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&partNumber=DSLRA900

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6132expd
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

Stop spreading rumors...the A900 is NOT discontinued!

Ma55l wrote:

Hi,

I believe the the 850 and 900 are discontinued - so there is no other full frame in production at present for Sony.

One more point - if they used the old 24 MP sensor from the 850 or 900 with changes in the software they might be able to tweak it for better performance. They would not have to redesign a new sensor in that case.

But why make the A77 bigger @ 5.4 inches over the A55 at 4.9 inches with that size differential being able to support a FF sensor inside. If they increase the size of the camera and place an APS sensor in it they would waste the space savings delievered by the SLT design.

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Ma55l
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to zackiedawg, Jul 29, 2011

You have made some points that I had considered before bringing this up. No one will know for sure until they introduce the camera's specs. However an iso of 104,000 in a 24 MP APS sensor seems too good to be true as there just isn't quite enough light gathered by the smallest pixels in the industry. It amounts to a 6 stop increase in low light technology for that pixel size. That technology has not moved that fast in the past (remember now for similar sized pixels). Previously about 1 to 1.5 stops per year and now a 6 stop increase?????

You might be correct aboput the size for a better balance. But it just seems interesting that the size increase is just enough to accomodate a FF sensor. And that was reported initially in the rumors.

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lhkjacky
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

A77 is impossible to be FF.
Sony has said that FF will not come be4 2012.

The kit len is 16-50 also show that A77 must be APSC.
if you calculate pixel density, it is not impossible to have 24MPix APSC sensor.

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Ma55l
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Re: Oh, oh, are you in trouble...
In reply to cyainparadise, Jul 29, 2011

Hi,

Thanks for being a gentleman when telling me that the A900 is not discontinued. You are correct theoritically, however if you go to the Sony site - they are back ordered - with a two month date of Sept 2011 before you can order one. I do not believe they are selling many and they may in effect be discontinued.

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zackiedawg
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

Ma55l wrote:

You have made some points that I had considered before bringing this up. No one will know for sure until they introduce the camera's specs. However an iso of 104,000 in a 24 MP APS sensor seems too good to be true as there just isn't quite enough light gathered by the smallest pixels in the industry. It amounts to a 6 stop increase in low light technology for that pixel size. That technology has not moved that fast in the past (remember now for similar sized pixels). Previously about 1 to 1.5 stops per year and now a 6 stop increase?????

But not THAT much smaller pixels, and not that drastically different than current sensors. For example, the current Canon 7D uses a smaller sensor than the Sony sensors (Canons have a 1.6x crop vs 1.5x crop) yet managed to cram 18MP onto that smaller sensor space. So moving up to 24MP with a little extra wiggle room on the Sony sensor size isn't that great a leap over what came before.

And ISO-wise, current DSLR APS-C sensors are typically rated up to ISO25,600. If the new camera goes to 102,400, then that's only a 2 stop increase. Not quite as drastic as it sounds. Throw away the highest ISO level, and you've got a camera that hopefully will provide usable results without cleanup at ISO12800 instead of 3200 (2 stop improvement) and usable ISO25,600 with mild cleanup (just like today's ISO6400).

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Ma55l
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Re: Sensor size of the upcoming A77 might be FF.
In reply to sye46, Jul 29, 2011

Hi,

My post is not a rumor. I am just using my perception to try and figure out why the body is bigger and large enough to accomodate a FF sensor and why Sony would design a new sensor from scratch that accomlishes unbelievable type performance in a camera that might cost 1300?. It would seem more cost effective to work over the existing 24 MP sensor from the A850-900. And with pixel real estates (surface areas) being twice what they are in a 24 MP APS sensor you might be able to squeeze a very bad photo at 104,000 iso.

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sye46
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Re: Oh, oh, are you in trouble...
In reply to Ma55l, Jul 29, 2011

Ma55l wrote:

Hi,

Thanks for being a gentleman when telling me that the A900 is not discontinued. You are correct theoritically, however if you go to the Sony site - they are back ordered - with a two month date of Sept 2011 before you can order one. I do not believe they are selling many and they may in effect be discontinued.

so we should believe you over Sony?

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