A week plus with the SD1 (long.....very long)

Started Jul 7, 2011 | Discussions
rick decker
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Re: I believe this image is actually much better
In reply to NarrBL, Jul 9, 2011

It's probably mold or mildew as if you look at the other images with gables it doesn't show this.
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NarrBL
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Re: I believe this image is actually much better
In reply to Erik Magnuson, Jul 9, 2011

Ok, Erik, and thanks for that. From your precision and reading through the whole subthread, plus some observation in a different viewing circumstance, I think all this can draw together happily.

  • first, taking your last, I see enough where you thought I was reacting harshly myself, and thus defended. Not quite the actual case; it was just that I had finally found a hard indication to explain what surprised me also about Rick's images as well as some number of others posted - the color profile issue (which has numerous twists and turns and also per-image-differing results).

And yes, i did presume everyone would be viewing that way; as much because there have been such high complaints across the forum as for any other reason. It seemed important to get that clear situation out, and in fact I picked Managarm's commentary as a nice place to do that. But in fact, he was using or could use Firefox, and his later comments that I am about to answer shows this wasn't probably the root of the things he was noting as less than optimal. Agree.

  • further, now that I have a little peace and an evening room where my laptop display works its best, I do see noise, very likely what both of you are observing, the green random pixel hash. It would literally hide in more intense background lighting; just something I am going to have to look out for.

This is very peculiar noise, I must say. It isn't often in truly dark areas at all. It does like to show some real strength in certain mid-scale areas, and also in certain transitional ones like the cloud-fog boundaries on the mountain. It seems to like certain colors to set it off, at a guess suggested in what's seen. To say the strangest part again, the noise happily appears in some mid-tone areas, and not in dark or light, which could also throw you off in looking for it. Once seen, though, it is there.

Furthermore, when you go to look, magnifying for better attention at 200% but with no saturation intensification, you also find something else: the small ten or 20 pixel dimension bounded areas just turned to monochrome grey. Leaves in the foliage framing the house at certain angles just turn grey, for example. I recall now that someone recently posted an outtake of another subject showing a similar effect; a few unlit light bulbs in a string just turned to grey masks in the same way. Very strange.

Here's yet one more strangeness. We're looking at an image indicating it was taken at ISO 100. Yet one taken at ISO 400 by the same camera doesn't seem to show this green pixel noise at all, even boosting saturation up to the color bloom point. That's http://www.pbase.com/rickdecker/image/136176846 .

Is noise reduction on in some shot processings and not in others? Is noise reduction responsible for the conversions of some small image features to grey masks? Is it rather something about blotch reduction? Too many good questions to ask.

I think to stop on this and see what comes out of Rick's reprocessing, setting proper colorspace and then converting, using the raw headroom to retrieve blown highlights, etc., setting sharpening to -2, etc.. This will improve all the viewing, and then maybe we'll see something to work with further on noise and-or masking issues.

In the end, then, I think we're arriving at a good investigation and discussion.

Regards,
Clive

p.s. the reason for having made the mistake in assessing pbase images lower than full size: if you bring an image link over to another browser, it shows at whatever scale that browser might have used last at pbase -- in this case, wasn't Original size.

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NarrBL
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Re: Ugh!!
In reply to rick decker, Jul 9, 2011

Hi Rick, and I agree -- a bit of work going forward here.

I think we should leave you in peace to work out your procedures, and get it done in a rhythm, and in all regards as you want.

You can find what may be interesting commentary at the last of conversation Erik and I've been having, also now summarizing to Managarm. It looks like there is some rather unusual noise behaviour, also some other artifacting in a particular image at least.

I wonder if you'd like to do a result both with and without SPP-level noise reduction turned on for that one, to see if we can identify any precursors or changes in results? http://www.pbase.com/rickdecker/image/136173125 if so.

Well, the rest. Reduced sharpening set, noise reduction choice, export ProPhoto RGB, open in Photoshop with proper color tag noted or assigned, perhaps sharpening, then sRGB conversion, then save as copy, checkbox keeping the EXIF. Whew.

Those goats always look remarkably smart; can they help at all on this?

Best as you know,
Clive

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NarrBL
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Re: I believe this image is actually much better
In reply to Managarm, Jul 9, 2011

Managarm, appreciating your patience while Erik and I worked through some things which have helped illuminate the situations you are talking about.

  • now that I have seen the noise, I agree with most places you have found it; also that it hasn't one way or other to do with lichen-etc., except that certain image tones around the mold spots may be in a range that seems to excite this green pixel noise.

  • The noise appears very peculiar. Please see last posting with Erik for some details, but a pretty significant one is that the noise doesn't show in dark areas (or light), but rather in certain mid-tones, possibly color regimes, possibly circumstances of nearby or backing features. Also, in this particular ISO 100 image the noise shows, but not apparently in another which is ISO 400. I have suggested a quick enough test as Rick is reprocessing, but we'll have to see if we can understand something definitive then.

  • Again in last note to Erik, you can see I seem to have spotted another type of anomaly - medium-small features of the image like foliage leaves are sometimes turned to a simple grey mask. Or that is the appearance, which is also seen in other examples.

  • the sharpening causes and remedies we seem to all agree on, great; and Rick's going to have the chance to recover blown highlight raw, if I didn't actually understand that he'd already done this on the intended postings.

  • ideas of course occur but at this point they are only speculation, mostly about noise or blotch reduction gone wrong, and I'm sure we'll all see farther with confidence soon.

You can probably tell it is late here. But this has been a very interesting conversation, Managarm, and appreciated. On all, you are welcome.

Grüss,
Clive

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jonny1976
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Re: I believe this image is actually much better
In reply to rick decker, Jul 9, 2011

can i ask you one question?
have you paid for the camera or is a camera sigma send to tyou to test?
just to know.

rick decker wrote:

It's probably mold or mildew as if you look at the other images with gables it doesn't show this.
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http://www.silveroaksranch.com
http://www.pbase.com/rickdecker

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Managarm
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Re: I believe this image is actually much better
In reply to NarrBL, Jul 9, 2011

NarrBL wrote:

  • now that I have seen the noise, I agree with most places you have found it; also that it hasn't one way or other to do with lichen-etc., except that certain image tones around the mold spots may be in a range that seems to excite this green pixel noise.

Yes, I guess you are right concerning tone ranges exciting this green noise.

  • The noise appears very peculiar. Please see last posting with Erik for some details, but a pretty significant one is that the noise doesn't show in dark areas (or light), but rather in certain mid-tones, possibly color regimes, possibly circumstances of nearby or backing features. Also, in this particular ISO 100 image the noise shows, but not apparently in another which is ISO 400. I have suggested a quick enough test as Rick is reprocessing, but we'll have to see if we can understand something definitive then.

Right, many pictures at higher ISO show less noise. I also think this mainly comes from processing involved. Midtone contrast enhancement could be an explanation for this phenomenon.

Still, this lesson shows that SD1 files have to be processed with more care than one might be used to.

You can probably tell it is late here. But this has been a very interesting conversation, Managarm, and appreciated. On all, you are welcome.

Thanks, I also enjoyed this conversation with all of you without the usual fuss and small minded fights involved. Thank you all for the input.

Grüss,

Grüezi aus einem naheliegenden Nachbarland.

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Managarm
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Re: Ups and Downs
In reply to rick decker, Jul 9, 2011

rick decker wrote:

Thanks, and don't worry, I don't take it personally.

Much appreciated, as you know how criticism sometimes works out in forums.

First, let me address NIK filters. I used them because I felt many of the images looked flat due to the light conditions. Perhaps I just traded "A for B".

Completely understand your intention. I also like those NIK filters for adding some pop to flat images and know their characteristic of potential noise enhancement. Since the noise I mentioned is mostly color noise, and color noise as such is mostly rather easily removeable, have you tried getting rid of it? The big color noise blotches typical for Foveon high ISO noise were always difficult to treat, but this pixel-perfect noise shouldn't be that hard. Or am I wrong as I haven't tried this yet with SD1 RAWs?

To me the proof is in the print. There is a tremendous amount of detail being pulled out of this camera. I have done 40x60 prints (cropped sections) and they look very impressive.

I bet the captured detail is impressive, in case the lens is able to deliver. The 18-50 actually fared better than I would have expected, whereas with many other zooms (and also the 18-50 in less than ideal settings) their specific weaknesses easily show up at this resolution. More primes please!

Thanks again for all these full size samples and please add even more!

Greetings

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Chunsum J Choi
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Re: Ugh!!
In reply to rick decker, Jul 9, 2011

this might help:

http://www.focusfactor.com/

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rick decker
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Re: Ugh!!
In reply to Chunsum J Choi, Jul 9, 2011

Yes my wife saw this and recommended a double dose!!

BTW: she recommended you move to Kona and open a good Chinese restaurant.

Is that possible or is it an Oxy moron?

R
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