SD1 full size disillusion (landscapes, nature)

Started Jun 27, 2011 | Discussions
Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Re: What did your friend do to you?
In reply to katate, Jun 29, 2011

katate wrote:

Did you not see his other messages to see what he would do with raw images?

Sorry, I didn't check what he did, but I finally noticed it. And still I do not want to withdraw may images and RAWs.

I wouldn't withdraw the RAW files. And you could still leave the Flickr images up, just not full screen... then people could go to the RAW files and see what is really there.

But that original message was assuming the images were from a pre-production camera, the RAW pack you provided looked like they were from a production model? That I think is perfectly fair to put up for comment. Perhaps I am confused about the initial images from the flickr gallery Petr posted of the mountains...

I believe people have to see exactly "what it is." I think my photos show some weakness of the SD1, but at the same time I believe I could show some possibilities or abilities of the SD1.

I agree with that totally, as long as they are not from a pre-production model - such images would show weaknesses that do not exist in the final model. That is my only concern about them not being representative, not that I want to hide anything about what the SD-1 can do, just that I want people to judge fairly based on what production equipment does.

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Re: Busted
In reply to SandyF, Jun 29, 2011

SandyF wrote:

Kendall, I haven't installed SPP5 yet so I cannot process the RAW ISO400 flower image myself. Would you do a proper processing of the image and show the difference to that which petr marek produced? Thanks,

That's what I did with that last image, the flowers I produced are a 100% view from SPP of the same portion of the image Petr converted.

I don't really have time to convert and post the others, sorry...

Some of them have exposure and CA issues, though that's as much about the lens as the camera. They are good for review but I don't know if they really say that much about the camera compared to other RAW images we have seen (like Carl's).

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katate
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Re: What did your friend do to you?
In reply to Kendall Helmstetter Gelner, Jun 30, 2011

Of course I used the production model.

On flickr, I think only Shinzo Fukui, SIGMA's art director, had the pre-production model, and now he uses production model.

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Nancy and Pete Spader
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Sandy and Kndall are correct
In reply to SandyF, Jun 30, 2011

I have called for people not to make general, especially negative, judgments of the SD1 (or any camera) until we had a great number of images from different people using the camera in different conditions. To make a general negative judgment you need to be able to show a problem seen in one image is a serious limitation that occurs in enough images to suggest the limitation is inherent to the camera. (Kendall is correct, however, that even one image can indicate something that a camera can do well).

As Sandy points out, the problem is the SD1 is in the hands of so few people that we do not have the range of images we quickly had with all the other Sigma cameras. So we have too few images to see the full range of what the SD1 can do under a lot of different conditions

The problem is we have had, from the first Sigma camera, people finding some problem in an image or a small series of images and saying the camera is terrible.

As Kendall points out, the problem is that if poorly supported negative judgments are not challenged they unfairly hurt both Sigma and all those who, given their interests as photographers, might find the SD1 (or any other camera) a great camera for their purposes as photographers. Negative judgments, even without adequate evidence behind them, take on credibility all too easily, since most people do not have the time to check things out themselves.

I hope Kendall someday is able to get back to spending more of his time taking pictures than correcting such unfair judgments!

Pete

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nedelcho
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The main problem with Sigma SD1...
In reply to Nancy and Pete Spader, Jun 30, 2011

The main problem with SD1, is that it has many of the same problems of the current generation sensor and adding a few more. Some of which may be down to processing bugs, but many are hardware related as far as I can say, judging by the many sample which appear on the internet (and by my experience shooting with various cameras).

Here is a short list of, as I can see them:

1. Posterization and magenta cast in the shadow areas (may be it is a bug in noise reduction system and WB processing, but I see it in almost every sample, even these from Olga. Mainly on her portrait images, in the shadow on the models neck - even with these web sized photos).

2. Green-magenta blotches in shadows and areas of very fine detail where the default noise reduction has some trouble to clean them is still very present.

3. Vertical banding in many of the samples and RAW files I've seen, which is apparent even if slightly pushed in post (even on low ISOs 100/200).
4. Discoloration - faded colors on high iso (if ISO 800 maybe considered high).

5. Some faint traces of noise and noise reduction even in ISO 100 images (it is barely visible though) even with noise reduction "turned off" in SPP5.

6. Very high default sharpening in SPP5 is responsible for oversharpened images with very little foveonish feel.

7. Very slow processing and write times in camera (judging by the many complaints).
8. Inability to make long exposures (for night landscapes).

All this and the ridiculous price, will put many users off with this camera even if it has potential. Sorry but these just aren't images from 10,000$ camera, you have to realize this, even if it is hard (because of the expectations every one here had). And you can't call it's shortcomings and brutally cut off camera body a "feature". It is not. Basic camera body without any feature it's competition has, even something so valuable such as well implemented live view is not "artistic camera". The man behind the camera is the artist. A true talented photographer will make beautiful images regardless of the camera. But cameras are designed to make life a little easier, not harder. Why you have to adapt to this very basic camera body, when every other manufacturer has better featured body with very comparable quality for 1/3-th of the price, which you don't have to constantly fight to make useable results? Why?

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petr marek
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Re: The main problem with Sigma SD1...
In reply to nedelcho, Jun 30, 2011

Well written, I see the same. Some people don´t want to see, so brace youself for attacks They will call you troll breath probably...

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Re: Sandy and Kndall are correct
In reply to Nancy and Pete Spader, Jun 30, 2011

Nancy and Pete Spader wrote:

I hope Kendall someday is able to get back to spending more of his time taking pictures than correcting such unfair judgments!

Me too...

At some point soon hopefully I have enough time just to POST images no-one has ever seen.

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Re: The main problem with Sigma SD1...
In reply to nedelcho, Jun 30, 2011

nedelcho wrote:

Here is a short list of, as I can see them:

1. Posterization and magenta cast in the shadow areas (may be it is a bug in noise reduction system and WB processing, but I see it in almost every sample, even these from Olga. Mainly on her portrait images, in the shadow on the models neck - even with these web sized photos).

That may be a color space issue, we'll have to see.

2. Green-magenta blotches in shadows and areas of very fine detail where the default noise reduction has some trouble to clean them is still very present.

Actually thats cleaned up quite a lot from previous cameras although it still can be found on occasion. But if you expose correctly generally it's not an issue.

3. Vertical banding in many of the samples and RAW files I've seen, which is apparent even if slightly pushed in post (even on low ISOs 100/200).

Are you sure that one is not just in the pre-production photos? That does show up in earlier hardware but generally is not in production equipment.

4. Discoloration - faded colors on high iso (if ISO 800 maybe considered high).

I would say that is not an issue at all (not at ISO 800 anyway). That starts to occur somewhat at ISO 1600 but it's way better than previous cameras in that regard.

5. Some faint traces of noise and noise reduction even in ISO 100 images (it is barely visible though) even with noise reduction "turned off" in SPP5.

By turned off, do you mean both sliders all the way to the left?

6. Very high default sharpening in SPP5 is responsible for oversharpened images with very little foveonish feel.

I agree the sharpening in there feels like too much on default.

7. Very slow processing and write times in camera (judging by the many complaints).

The write time is an issue, it takes a while to write out an image even with a fast CF card. The processing you can judge for yourself with downloaded SD-1 images since it depends on your system, I do think it's pretty slow at least on a Mac... both of those are one area for sure that are slower than previous cameras.

To some extent you can work around those for some shots at least by lowering the resolution if you know you'll not need the full resolution being captured. But what's the fun in THAT?

8. Inability to make long exposures (for night landscapes).

It can do two minutes but I know what you mean, it would be great to be able to leave it on for a few hours. That to me is a pretty fringe case though.

All this and the ridiculous price, will put many users off with this camera even if it has potential.

The price to my mind comes first in not just putting people off, but making it impossible for many to afford the camera from the start.

Sorry but these just aren't images from 10,000$ camera

The thing is at the best, the images are as good or better than images coming from $8k cameras.

But very few people in the general market are going to buy on IQ alone.

you have to realize this, even if it is hard (because of the expectations every one here had). And you can't call it's shortcomings and brutally cut off camera body a "feature". It is not.

The camera body is not "brutally cut off". It's not a Nikon but it's a good body, better than many DSLR's on the market today, with very good controls for someone that knows what they want the camera to do. There is I think some value in that being a consideration in design.

Basic camera body without any feature it's competition has, even something so valuable such as well implemented live view is not "artistic camera".

The man behind the camera is the artist. A true talented photographer will make beautiful images regardless of the camera. But cameras are designed to make life a little easier, not harder.

The thing you are not seeing is that the Sigma cameras DO make life easier for a lot of shots, because they require much less post-processing to be really nice images than other camera bodies. To me the cameras make life a LOT easier.

And they give you a fundamentally clean image with consistent detail that again, you don't have to clean up in post.

Why you have to adapt to this very basic camera body, when every other manufacturer has better featured body with very comparable quality for 1/3-th of the price, which you don't have to constantly fight to make useable results? Why?

Because to me after everything is done, long after equipment is broken and discarded, only the image remains, and I still prefer the output from the Foveon cameras.

Is that wrong? Why is it wrong to prefer something in art? I thought it was the artists choice?

That's what really gets me, is people on the forums that prefer Foveon images are constantly attacked. Why? We don;t go over to Nikon or Canon or other forums and say they are wrong for liking the cameras the like. Why should only Sigma owners be wrong in the choice of camera they have made?

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Re: Utter misunderstanding on your part
In reply to Couscousdelight, Jun 30, 2011

Couscousdelight wrote:

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

Curious that it only starts when you can find the oldest possible RAW images from PREPRODUCTION hardware.

I'm sorry, but no, only the first image of the serie is made with a old FW, all other pics are made with a recent FW.

That's a good point, I was going by the initial flickr links - I realized after I pulled down the RAW pack the others were from production firmware.

However even with that argument out of the way, it turns out Petr is misleading you - he did something that I can't even reproduce in SPP5 to get noise that you don't get by default.

Note that when I challenged him to say just what settings he used to produce those images, he said nothing...

Download them and try for yourself. Start from Auto, see how the noise he pointed out is simply not there?

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Re: What did your friend do to you?
In reply to katate, Jun 30, 2011

katate wrote:

Of course I used the production model.

On flickr, I think only Shinzo Fukui, SIGMA's art director, had the pre-production model, and now he uses production model.

I defiantly had you confused with the source of the initial Flickr images, my apologies for the mistake. I withdraw my thoughts that anything of yours should be pulled back in posting size...

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katate
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Re: What did your friend do to you?
In reply to Kendall Helmstetter Gelner, Jun 30, 2011

You should not apologize. It's my fault that I skipped the whole discussion, so I should mention that mine is the production model. Please forgive me, as English is not my first language.

I hope any kinds of the confusion on this forum will disappear soon, and you could focus on your photography work. I really appreciate your rational discussion here. Anyone read the whole conversation will be persuaded by you, not by the others.

Best regards,
katate
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Goflorp
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Re: The main problem with Sigma SD1...
In reply to nedelcho, Jun 30, 2011

That diesel it.

I'm out

Good luck you all.

If anybody want anything, you'll find me in the Pentax section.

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DMillier
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Re: The main problem with Sigma SD1...
In reply to Kendall Helmstetter Gelner, Jun 30, 2011

Regarding your last point, my guess would be because some people don't see anything better about Foveon images. Also, some people can't even be sure you see anything better in them either, it might all be a horrible delusion.

I guess that is the problem you face whenever you sign up to a minority pursuit because you think it's better than the mainstream. How do you prove you aren't imagining it? Many would of course say it's a personal matter, i don't have to prove anything. But then there is the problem of how you convert others to the cause.

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RKGoth
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Re: SD1 full size disillusion (landscapes, nature)
In reply to petr marek, Jun 30, 2011

Took some time to do the AF adjustment on my 24-70 - only needed a tweak, but the SD1 is so critical that the tweak makes all the difference.

These are not good photographs. This weekend I get to spend time on photography, not the day job.

The flower is 800 ISO (it was VERY windy, I was using a tripod and continuous focus) and looks a tad punchy as I'd left some colour adjustments on the camera.

The building is lower res (half size) output file, but still shows just how well the SD1 is retaining the textures and detail - the main issue being the 4.5Mp output from SD14-DP-15 being "good but why can't we have more". Well. Now we have more.

Whilst I did grab a tripod, these are garden snaps.

Couple of exposure tweaks as I wanted more of the sky.

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Jaelkay
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Re: The main problem with Sigma SD1...
In reply to Kendall Helmstetter Gelner, Jun 30, 2011

Cognitive disequilibrium anyone?

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Nancy and Pete Spader
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Kendall
In reply to Kendall Helmstetter Gelner, Jul 1, 2011

Now that is something we are really looking forward to seeing!

Pete and Nancy

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Pixta
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Re: The main problem with Sigma SD1...
In reply to Jaelkay, Jul 1, 2011

Jaelkay wrote:

Cognitive disequilibrium anyone?

You crack me up.

"Cognitive dissonance may enhance sympathetic tonus, but attitudes are changed to reduce negative affect rather than arousal..."

Are there any experts in behavioural phenomenology in the forum who would care to have a crack at this?

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Re: The main problem with Sigma SD1...
In reply to Jaelkay, Jul 1, 2011

Jaelkay wrote:

Cognitive disequilibrium anyone?

No thanks, you can keep it.

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Jaelkay
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Re: The main problem with Sigma SD1...
In reply to Kendall Helmstetter Gelner, Jul 1, 2011

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

Jaelkay wrote:

Cognitive disequilibrium anyone?

No thanks, you can keep it.

You have it in spades, Kendall.

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