SD 16

Started Jun 7, 2011 | Discussions
425i
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SD 16
Jun 7, 2011

Since the SD1 is a bit dearer than we thought it would be
What about a Sigma releasing a SD16 for the rest of us

Have not tried a SD15 as they are a bit rare in Australia but from others on here they sound pretty good
So I was thinking what would I like in a SD16

The one thing I would like is video as the present SD15 sounds like it has all I would want; except video
I know some people don't want video but there are times when it is fantastic
especially for kids at party's etc or sporting/performance events
Take a pic of your kid singing and its ok
but film it and its something much better especially in a few years time

What does ever body else think would be nice on a SD16; besides being affordable

Nick

yvind Strm
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Re: SD 16
In reply to 425i, Jun 7, 2011

There are three options.

a) Sigma priced the SD-1 to make room for a SD-16. How would they price a SD-16 otherwise? If so, a SD-16 might appear next year.

b) The SD-1 price increase was sensor production related, which makes it not very likely that we will see a SD-16 before any production issues are solved.

c) There was some other reason for the price increase, in case we might see a SD-16 in a years time.

I tend to think that b) is the case, so I think the unexpected price increase of the SD-1 has put the SD-16 on hold.

It has been stated that Sigma want a broader range of DSLRs, but what is the alternatives?

  1. another camera with the SD-14/15s sensor?

  2. a SD-16 with a 1.7 crop version of SD-1s sensor?

  3. a SD-16 with same sensor as the SD-1?

  4. a totally new sensor?

I think the only feasable solution is 2, a 1.7crop version of the SD-16.

But again, if the price increase of SD-1 was due to production issues, its gonna be a while before we will hear about it.

Also remember that the SD-15 was released only about a year ago. That is now Sigmas entry level camera.

425i wrote:

Since the SD1 is a bit dearer than we thought it would be
What about a Sigma releasing a SD16 for the rest of us

Have not tried a SD15 as they are a bit rare in Australia but from others on here they sound pretty good
So I was thinking what would I like in a SD16

The one thing I would like is video as the present SD15 sounds like it has all I would want; except video
I know some people don't want video but there are times when it is fantastic
especially for kids at party's etc or sporting/performance events
Take a pic of your kid singing and its ok
but film it and its something much better especially in a few years time

What does ever body else think would be nice on a SD16; besides being affordable

Nick

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PavelAKACert
Regular MemberPosts: 186
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Re: SD 16
In reply to 425i, Jun 7, 2011

425i wrote:

What does ever body else think would be nice on a SD16; besides being affordable

Nick

There should be no SD16 in the first place as the number would imply it's just an improved SD15(SD14). The next camera has to be something like SD21 with new sensor and improved body.

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Frank Borges
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Re: SD 16
In reply to 425i, Jun 7, 2011

I would like an SD16 before I die from old age.

Frank B

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Halldor Eiriksson
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Re: SD 16
In reply to 425i, Jun 7, 2011

A new sensor somewhere half way between SD15 and SD1 would be fine for me. And a 1.5 crop, not 1.7. With excellent focus and color accuracy and no color cast. Pixel sharpness will be there, of course.
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ImagingImpulse
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In Camera
In reply to Halldor Eiriksson, Jun 7, 2011

processing tricks to significantly reduce "green" shots and noise in the shadows.

If live view gets implemented, I want to see tethering on a 1920x1080 sized screen as well. Even if implemented poorly, let's start with something .

If the problems with the SD1 relate to the APS-C sensor size, I'm all for going to the smaller one (with the SD1 improvements) to get the camera out faster. Otherwise if it's the quantity of photosites, I'm all for less. Speed to market is important.

I think Sigma needs to be swift and proactive in getting a "improved" camera to market.

I know the SD15 is an upgrade to the SD14. It just doesn't feel like one.

I'd be happy with a updated sensor in just the SD15, if it kicks a camera out significantly quicker.

Random thought:

Would anyone consider an SD15 with the SD1 body? Just wondering if the interface is a huge improvement or just different.

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petr marek
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Re: SD 16
In reply to 425i, Jun 7, 2011

8Mpx APS-C sensor
noise-free ISO100-800, no green/magenta splashes
fast operations and reliable autofocus at least as competition
APS-C level price
That would be enough to compete...

And my dream would be in the future a copy of Panasonic GH2 with new Foveon. Mirrorless, because of possibility to adapt any lens via adapter and continuous video autofocus.

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LUIS A GUEVARA
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Re: SD 16
In reply to yvind Strm, Jun 7, 2011

yvind Strm wrote:
There are three options.

a) Sigma priced the SD-1 to make room for a SD-16. How would they price a SD-16 otherwise? If so, a SD-16 might appear next year.

b) The SD-1 price increase was sensor production related, which makes it not very likely that we will see a SD-16 before any production issues are solved.

c) There was some other reason for the price increase, in case we might see a SD-16 in a years time.

I tend to think that b) is the case, so I think the unexpected price increase of the SD-1 has put the SD-16 on hold.

It has been stated that Sigma want a broader range of DSLRs, but what is the alternatives?

  1. another camera with the SD-14/15s sensor?

  2. a SD-16 with a 1.7 crop version of SD-1s sensor?

  3. a SD-16 with same sensor as the SD-1?

  4. a totally new sensor?

I think the only feasable solution is 2, a 1.7crop version of the SD-16.

But again, if the price increase of SD-1 was due to production issues, its gonna be a while before we will hear about it.

Also remember that the SD-15 was released only about a year ago. That is now Sigmas entry level camera.

425i wrote:

Since the SD1 is a bit dearer than we thought it would be
What about a Sigma releasing a SD16 for the rest of us

Have not tried a SD15 as they are a bit rare in Australia but from others on here they sound pretty good
So I was thinking what would I like in a SD16

The one thing I would like is video as the present SD15 sounds like it has all I would want; except video
I know some people don't want video but there are times when it is fantastic
especially for kids at party's etc or sporting/performance events
Take a pic of your kid singing and its ok
but film it and its something much better especially in a few years time

What does ever body else think would be nice on a SD16; besides being affordable

Nick

Excellent points Øyvind. I think that the most likely is an SD16 with a 1.7 crop version of SD-1s sensor using rejects from manufacturing that show failure in the periphery of the sensor chip. This is not uncommon in Electronic Manufacturing.

A Trimmed down SD-1s sensor might give the same Pixel Count of an SD15 but with better performance due to improvements in the Photoreceptors size and architecture.

Perhaps less Noise and higher max ISO.
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PavelAKACert
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Re: SD 16
In reply to LUIS A GUEVARA, Jun 7, 2011

LUIS A GUEVARA wrote:

Excellent points Øyvind. I think that the most likely is an SD16 with a 1.7 crop version of SD-1s sensor using rejects from manufacturing that show failure in the periphery of the sensor chip. This is not uncommon in Electronic Manufacturing.

A Trimmed down SD-1s sensor might give the same Pixel Count of an SD15 but with better performance due to improvements in the Photoreceptors size and architecture.

Perhaps less Noise and higher max ISO.
--
Luis

I agree that this approach makes sense but I think it has some major flaws. First, any such mainstream camera would sell more than SD1 so they would have to use mainly fully working sensors. Otherwise it would mean that the sensor yield is a pure disaster as there would be many more completely useless sensors with defects in other than peripheral areas (assuming that defects are evenly spread).

Second, I don't think they can "trim" the sensor. More likely they would have to trim the image in-camera while processing it. As a result they would have to keep two TRUE-II in the design otherwise the camera would be too slow.

In the end such camera would be almost if not completely the same as SD1. Of course they can make changes in the body making it a cheaper brother to SD1. But I don't think there is any space in this department either. SD1 doesn't have anything special, in fact it lacks a lot compared to competition even in mainstream. I can imagine only cheaper materials for the body.

Anyway, I may be completely wrong, but imagine cheaper SD1 with ability to "hack" the firmware to disable trimming. Would be fun to pray for no defects, something like unlocking disabled cores in CPU.

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short243
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Re: In Camera
In reply to ImagingImpulse, Jun 7, 2011

ImagingImpulse wrote:

processing tricks to significantly reduce "green" shots and noise in the shadows.

Would anyone consider an SD15 with the SD1 body? Just wondering if the interface is a huge improvement or just different.

Hi, Very much so IF the AF and microadjustment are good.

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FritsThomsen
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Nobody needs ...
In reply to 425i, Jun 7, 2011

a SD16 ... just lower the price of SD1

I believe the high price of SD1 is purely dictated by "politics" , wishfull thinking and missplaced vanity....

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epsilon sigma taph
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Re: Nobody needs ...
In reply to FritsThomsen, Jun 8, 2011

Why do people always want something new that is tailor made to their particular needs? Only the rich can have such things. Sigma can't afford to bring out a new camera every year. I'm sure the SD15 is going to be the only affordable Sigma DSLR for a long time yet. If it doesn't turn you on get something else. From all accounts the Sony A77 is going to be the best thing since sliced bread in terms of price and performance. If you can't live without 46 megapixel Foveon IQ, save your money, buy the SD1 and stop complaining.

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LUIS A GUEVARA
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Re: SD 16
In reply to PavelAKACert, Jun 8, 2011

PavelAKACert wrote:

LUIS A GUEVARA wrote:

Excellent points Øyvind. I think that the most likely is an SD16 with a 1.7 crop version of SD-1s sensor using rejects from manufacturing that show failure in the periphery of the sensor chip. This is not uncommon in Electronic Manufacturing.

A Trimmed down SD-1s sensor might give the same Pixel Count of an SD15 but with better performance due to improvements in the Photoreceptors size and architecture.

Perhaps less Noise and higher max ISO.
--
Luis

I agree that this approach makes sense but I think it has some major flaws. First, any such mainstream camera would sell more than SD1 so they would have to use mainly fully working sensors. Otherwise it would mean that the sensor yield is a pure disaster as there would be many more completely useless sensors with defects in other than peripheral areas (assuming that defects are evenly spread).

Second, I don't think they can "trim" the sensor. More likely they would have to trim the image in-camera while processing it. As a result they would have to keep two TRUE-II in the design otherwise the camera would be too slow.

In the end such camera would be almost if not completely the same as SD1. Of course they can make changes in the body making it a cheaper brother to SD1. But I don't think there is any space in this department either. SD1 doesn't have anything special, in fact it lacks a lot compared to competition even in mainstream. I can imagine only cheaper materials for the body.

Anyway, I may be completely wrong, but imagine cheaper SD1 with ability to "hack" the firmware to disable trimming. Would be fun to pray for no defects, something like unlocking disabled cores in CPU.

You are right . The most common way of "salvaging" rejects is by "Logical" Trimming but, unlike CPU Chips such as the presence or abscense of a Math module, this is generally done by burning out internal logic select conections . This is not reversable .

Your interesting observation; "In the end such camera would be almost if not completely the same as SD1" is offering an elegant way for Mr Kazuto Yamaki to save face and reduce the disparate price of the SD1 to a more realistic one , on the way perhaps saving the company future .

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maple
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Re: SD 16
In reply to 425i, Jun 8, 2011

I’m on a similar boat, and have been pondering on the upgrading path since SD1 is no long a sensible option (regardless of affordability). I have the following observations:

- SD15 is a worthy upgrade from SD10.

- DP2S instead of DP2X for1/2 stop more DR, if you want something light and small
- Fuji X100 or Pana G3 if VF is more important to you

I’m leave my options open:

- Eying Nikon D5100 for its good IQ and compactness
- Waiting for new announcement from Sony (A77), Oly (EP3) and Pana (GF3), etc.

- Dreaming of SD25 using 1.7 crop of the SD1 sensor. Unlikely, but not totally dead if allowed a couple of years. The smaller form factor should help bring up yield significantly.

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Maple

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425i
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Re: Nobody needs ...
In reply to epsilon sigma taph, Jun 8, 2011

I dont think wanting video on an updated SD15 is catering to my specific needs

I think video is a thing wanted by the vast bulk of DSLR users as can be seen by the offerings of other companys

Im actually happy with the sensor size of my SD14 and was thinking that the SD15 with its improvements would be a great camera, which got me thinking what would I actually like to have on a SD16
and the only thing I personally would like changing is the lack of video

NIck

epsilon sigma taph wrote:

Why do people always want something new that is tailor made to their particular needs? Only the rich can have such things. Sigma can't afford to bring out a new camera every year. I'm sure the SD15 is going to be the only affordable Sigma DSLR for a long time yet. If it doesn't turn you on get something else. From all accounts the Sony A77 is going to be the best thing since sliced bread in terms of price and performance. If you can't live without 46 megapixel Foveon IQ, save your money, buy the SD1 and stop complaining.

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coraxphoto
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Sigma Bodies are Long Outdated to Compete Mass Market
In reply to epsilon sigma taph, Jun 8, 2011

epsilon sigma taph wrote:

Why do people always want something new that is tailor made to their particular needs? Only the rich can have such things. Sigma can't afford to bring out a new camera every year.

I don't think wanting a camera body that offers options that are standard issue for almost every DSLR on the market is wanting something tailor made. Sigma is behind the times...and the SD1 was their chance to actually sell a camera that was worth not having some of those other standard issue features (that I honestly think they can't figure out)...for the original price that was announced.

The SD15 was pretty much a fix to the SD14. Kind of like a plastic surgeon redoing your lop-sided breast implants from his first attempt. I refuse to "upgrade" to the SD15 because I don't think Sigma consistently resolved the crappy autofocus issues of the SD14. It's offensive to pay $1,000 for a DSLR that doesn't focus as consistently as a digicam. Every cell phone has video now. Even the $15 ones from Wal-Mart. So should every DSLR that costs more than $500, which is the most I would ever pay for an SD15.

Honestly, I think Sigma is finished with bodies like the SD15. I can't see them investing more R&D for an in-between sensor. It would be stupid to build another DSLR with the same foveon as the SD15. They would rather manufacture and sell a small number of expensive niche cameras. Maybe that would resolve their legendary spotty quality control issues. Of course, they will wait another two years before they actually announce to the current customer base that they will no longer be selling cameras in the sub $3,500 price range.

Spend big or look elsewhere. The writing is on the wall. The Pentax K5 is looking pretty sweet for the money right now. I would give my pinkie toe if Fujifilm got back in the DSLR game.

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PavelAKACert
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Re: SD 16
In reply to maple, Jun 8, 2011

maple wrote:

- DP2S instead of DP2X for1/2 stop more DR, if you want something light and
Maple

Is this really true?

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maple
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Re: SD 16
In reply to PavelAKACert, Jun 8, 2011

As mentioned, it is my observation by inference - I have seen samples comparing DP1S vs DP1X that shows highlight clipping on the 1X, not with 1S.

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Maple

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DMillier
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Re: Sigma Bodies are Long Outdated to Compete Mass Market
In reply to coraxphoto, Jun 8, 2011

Assuming the Sd15 has solved the reliability problems of the SD14, what is needed more than video is for Sigma to actually demonstrate that their so called philiosphy of no-frills-photgrapher-centric design is real rather than a smokescreen for incompetence and cost-cutting.

I suspect most people realise by now that you don't actually get anything in exchange for the absence of features and performance from Sigma. IMO, if Sigma's bare-bones cameras improve the shooting experiece over more complicated competitors, it's by accident, not design:

  • In what way does continually fitting crappy LCD screens help the photographer?

  • In what way does having 7 sec per shot write times help the photographer?

  • In what way does having to wait an eternity for the review histogram help the photographer?

  • In what way is a physical dust filter superior to an effective dust shaker?

  • In what way does the absence of live view help the photographer achieve accurate focus when using a tripod?

Why after 4 DSLR models, can't Sigma produce a camera that comes remotely near the abilities of say Canon's 1000D or Nikon's D3100, cameras that sell for as little as £300, especially as they like to price everything up against far superior camera bodies like the D7000.

Do you really buy the marketing that says the absence of industry standard features and performance is a virtue? I don't. To me it says either that Sigma can barely build functioning cameras or (perhaps more worryingly) that they think their customers are mugs. Perhaps the SD1 fiasco has got through even to the diehards, and taught then that they aren't mugs...

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Mike Gerstner
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SD 16: 1.5 crop with ......
In reply to 425i, Jun 8, 2011

photosites the same size as an SD10 = more light gathering =better dynamic range & highlight recovery, & tonal gradation. Offset microlenses if it actually helps, a better res LCD, and above average auto focus. Combined with advances in signal processing (speed and quality) I'd think it would be a nice camera. Not sure what the spatial resolution would be, but it would probably suffice for 90% of what people need/want, and probably a good bit cheaper.

Throw in live view (at least tethering), lens calibration, 100% view finder, ISO 25 to 800

I like the SD10 Body layout & I'd really like to see a return to that configuration. Simple, no frills, functional, top lcd.

Maybe Sigma should go back to National Semiconductor for their fab work, seems like they had a good handle on producing the chip, if that is indeed part of the problem........or maybe give these folks a call

http://www.dalsa.com/sensors/applications/dsc.aspx

Thanks for asking........

Mike

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