Does Moire=Sharp=Good ?

Started May 28, 2011 | Discussions
illy
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Re: Distinctions
In reply to Anthony Cheh, May 30, 2011

Anthony Cheh wrote:

So what, in your view, distinguishes a sincere and constructive question from a troll post framed in the guise of question?

They are quite different, aren't they?

Tony

yes they are different but if say someone on this forum you respected asked the same question would you regard it in the same light as Ga's post?
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Anthony Cheh
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Re: Distinctions
In reply to illy, May 30, 2011

So, would the poster's history be some indication of their motivation and "reputation"?

Tony

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papillon_65
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Re: Agree
In reply to illy, May 30, 2011

illy wrote:

Anthony Cheh wrote:

Papillon:

I completely agree with your technical analysis and your view of the true motivation and lack of usefulness behind the OP and this thread.

Perhaps Mr. Ga thought he was being "clever" in his sequencing - giving priority and attention to "Moire" first, subordinating "Sharp" by placing it that second and irrevocably wedding it, with an equal sign, to "Moire", and only then asking the question: is it "good".

He was even less coy when he finally said "would you laugh and say 'I'd stay a million miles from that camera', or would you say "hmmm ... that must be a pretty sharp sensor and lens to get that amount of colour moire ... bet its a cracking landscape camera..'

All for truth and neutrality, obviously...

Regards,

Tony

if certain people ask questions then it gets classed as a criticism of 4/3rds....and quite often were no criticism was said, i have just had another case of this myself were a reply bore no resemblance to what i actually said, sometimes the messenger is more important than the message they bear around here.
--
Smoke me a kipper....i'll be back for breakfast

I don't think anyone has a problem with technical debates, it's more a case of who is asking and how they do it. If anybody thinks that the title of the OP is anything less than blatant sarcasm and baiting then they're deluding themselves. His track record speaks for itself. If the post had been titled something like "moire and the E-5" or "Anybody having problems with moire on the E-5?" then the response would have been a lot more civilised. Of course this didn't happen because that was not his intent, it's just another Big Ga fud grenade designed to stir the pot, that is blatantly obvious.
--
It's a known fact that where there's tea there's hope.
Tony
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illy
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Re: Distinctions
In reply to Anthony Cheh, May 30, 2011

Anthony Cheh wrote:

So, would the poster's history be some indication of their motivation and "reputation"?

Tony

guilty until proved otherwise?
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illy
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Re: Agree
In reply to papillon_65, May 30, 2011

papillon_65 wrote:

illy wrote:

Anthony Cheh wrote:

Papillon:

I completely agree with your technical analysis and your view of the true motivation and lack of usefulness behind the OP and this thread.

Perhaps Mr. Ga thought he was being "clever" in his sequencing - giving priority and attention to "Moire" first, subordinating "Sharp" by placing it that second and irrevocably wedding it, with an equal sign, to "Moire", and only then asking the question: is it "good".

He was even less coy when he finally said "would you laugh and say 'I'd stay a million miles from that camera', or would you say "hmmm ... that must be a pretty sharp sensor and lens to get that amount of colour moire ... bet its a cracking landscape camera..'

All for truth and neutrality, obviously...

Regards,

Tony

if certain people ask questions then it gets classed as a criticism of 4/3rds....and quite often were no criticism was said, i have just had another case of this myself were a reply bore no resemblance to what i actually said, sometimes the messenger is more important than the message they bear around here.
--
Smoke me a kipper....i'll be back for breakfast

I don't think anyone has a problem with technical debates, it's more a case of who is asking and how they do it. If anybody thinks that the title of the OP is anything less than blatant sarcasm and baiting then they're deluding themselves. His track record speaks for itself. If the post had been titled something like "moire and the E-5" or "Anybody having problems with moire on the E-5?" then the response would have been a lot more civilised. Of course this didn't happen because that was not his intent, it's just another Big Ga fud grenade designed to stir the pot, that is blatantly obvious.
--
It's a known fact that where there's tea there's hope.
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

i read his questions and thought them valid, it's easy to criticise him for his posts but surely the replies he gets can be classed the same way?
--
Smoke me a kipper....i'll be back for breakfast

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papillon_65
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Re: Distinctions
In reply to illy, May 30, 2011

illy wrote:

Anthony Cheh wrote:

So what, in your view, distinguishes a sincere and constructive question from a troll post framed in the guise of question?

They are quite different, aren't they?

Tony

yes they are different but if say someone on this forum you respected asked the same question would you regard it in the same light as Ga's post?

Obviously not because they wouldn't have posted the title of the thread in that way, which is clearly mocking E-5 owners. What sort of reaction do you think I'd get if I posted on the Pentax DSLR forum "Does lowlight=misfocus=good" referring to the K-5 tungsten lighting issue.

-- hide signature --

Smoke me a kipper....i'll be back for breakfast

-- hide signature --

It's a known fact that where there's tea there's hope.
Tony
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papillon_65
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Re: Agree
In reply to illy, May 30, 2011

illy wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

illy wrote:

Anthony Cheh wrote:

Papillon:

I completely agree with your technical analysis and your view of the true motivation and lack of usefulness behind the OP and this thread.

Perhaps Mr. Ga thought he was being "clever" in his sequencing - giving priority and attention to "Moire" first, subordinating "Sharp" by placing it that second and irrevocably wedding it, with an equal sign, to "Moire", and only then asking the question: is it "good".

He was even less coy when he finally said "would you laugh and say 'I'd stay a million miles from that camera', or would you say "hmmm ... that must be a pretty sharp sensor and lens to get that amount of colour moire ... bet its a cracking landscape camera..'

All for truth and neutrality, obviously...

Regards,

Tony

if certain people ask questions then it gets classed as a criticism of 4/3rds....and quite often were no criticism was said, i have just had another case of this myself were a reply bore no resemblance to what i actually said, sometimes the messenger is more important than the message they bear around here.
--
Smoke me a kipper....i'll be back for breakfast

I don't think anyone has a problem with technical debates, it's more a case of who is asking and how they do it. If anybody thinks that the title of the OP is anything less than blatant sarcasm and baiting then they're deluding themselves. His track record speaks for itself. If the post had been titled something like "moire and the E-5" or "Anybody having problems with moire on the E-5?" then the response would have been a lot more civilised. Of course this didn't happen because that was not his intent, it's just another Big Ga fud grenade designed to stir the pot, that is blatantly obvious.
--
It's a known fact that where there's tea there's hope.
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

i read his questions and thought them valid, it's easy to criticise him for his posts but surely the replies he gets can be classed the same way?
--
Smoke me a kipper....i'll be back for breakfast

I'd suggest he often gets the replies his posts deserve, it's not that difficult to construct a post that discusses any potential issues without deliberately being sarcastic and goading. I pretty much keep out of these pointless p$$$ing contests these days because they don't really serve any purpose and because I'd rather not get into 150 post slanging matches. I made an exception in this case because it is so blatantly obvious what is going on here.

The inference is usually that Olympus users themselves are the problem on this forum. This is total crap as I don't see any of the blatant baiting and sarcasm directed at any other forum, often by a group of people who generally don't buy or use the gear they are consistently criticising.
--
It's a known fact that where there's tea there's hope.
Tony
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illy
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Re: Distinctions
In reply to papillon_65, May 30, 2011

papillon_65 wrote:

illy wrote:

Anthony Cheh wrote:

So what, in your view, distinguishes a sincere and constructive question from a troll post framed in the guise of question?

They are quite different, aren't they?

Tony

yes they are different but if say someone on this forum you respected asked the same question would you regard it in the same light as Ga's post?

Obviously not because they wouldn't have posted the title of the thread in that way, which is clearly mocking E-5 owners. What sort of reaction do you think I'd get if I posted on the Pentax DSLR forum "Does lowlight=misfocus=good" referring to the K-5 tungsten lighting issue.

-- hide signature --

Smoke me a kipper....i'll be back for breakfast

-- hide signature --

It's a known fact that where there's tea there's hope.
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

misfocus isn't good...is it? But are moire and false detail good if the files work out better?
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boggis the cat
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No colour artefacts, nor moire, in the shots
In reply to Big Ga, May 30, 2011

Big Ga wrote:

boggis the cat wrote:

The source files from imaging resource do not show any moire.

They don't have content that's geared to show moire particularly. What they do show is colour artifacting. Which means that you would get moire with different content.

They don't show colour artefacts either:

Whatever Jim is doing to resize the photos is introducing the issue.

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illy
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Re: Agree
In reply to papillon_65, May 30, 2011

papillon_65 wrote:

illy wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

illy wrote:

Anthony Cheh wrote:

Papillon:

I completely agree with your technical analysis and your view of the true motivation and lack of usefulness behind the OP and this thread.

Perhaps Mr. Ga thought he was being "clever" in his sequencing - giving priority and attention to "Moire" first, subordinating "Sharp" by placing it that second and irrevocably wedding it, with an equal sign, to "Moire", and only then asking the question: is it "good".

He was even less coy when he finally said "would you laugh and say 'I'd stay a million miles from that camera', or would you say "hmmm ... that must be a pretty sharp sensor and lens to get that amount of colour moire ... bet its a cracking landscape camera..'

All for truth and neutrality, obviously...

Regards,

Tony

if certain people ask questions then it gets classed as a criticism of 4/3rds....and quite often were no criticism was said, i have just had another case of this myself were a reply bore no resemblance to what i actually said, sometimes the messenger is more important than the message they bear around here.
--
Smoke me a kipper....i'll be back for breakfast

I don't think anyone has a problem with technical debates, it's more a case of who is asking and how they do it. If anybody thinks that the title of the OP is anything less than blatant sarcasm and baiting then they're deluding themselves. His track record speaks for itself. If the post had been titled something like "moire and the E-5" or "Anybody having problems with moire on the E-5?" then the response would have been a lot more civilised. Of course this didn't happen because that was not his intent, it's just another Big Ga fud grenade designed to stir the pot, that is blatantly obvious.
--
It's a known fact that where there's tea there's hope.
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

i read his questions and thought them valid, it's easy to criticise him for his posts but surely the replies he gets can be classed the same way?
--
Smoke me a kipper....i'll be back for breakfast

I'd suggest he often gets the replies his posts deserve, it's not that difficult to construct a post that discusses any potential issues without deliberately being sarcastic and goading. I pretty much keep out of these pointless p$$$ing contests these days because they don't really serve any purpose and because I'd rather not get into 150 post slanging matches. I made an exception in this case because it is so blatantly obvious what is going on here.

The inference is usually that Olympus users themselves are the problem on this forum. This is total crap as I don't see any of the blatant baiting and sarcasm directed at any other forum, often by a group of people who generally don't buy or use the gear they are consistently criticising.
--
It's a known fact that where there's tea there's hope.
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

maybe you should check his posting history and the gear he owns and has used
--
Smoke me a kipper....i'll be back for breakfast

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Anthony Cheh
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Troll Not Equal To Sincere Question
In reply to papillon_65, May 30, 2011

Papillon and Illy:

I believe Papillon answered your question, Illy.

The way the question is framed says a lot about if it is a sincere inquiry or "bait".

The poster's history can be revealing too.

Constructive questioning advances all of us even if the answers can sometimes be uncomfortable. But, Ga framed his question in an obviously and deliberately provocative way, and he repeated that provocation. He also has history of fixation on finding things wrong with equipment he has no actual interest in, in order to annoy other people who do own that equipment.

Strangely, when I last participated on this forum years ago, Big Ga was the wittiest and funniest person here, with lots of helpful information, humor and encouragement for others. My, how things have changed.

As others have pointed out already, no camera or lens is perfect, and the specific subject of this thread, moire, has remedies if it does appear. Or, like Big Ga, you can use different equipment, like his Nikons. But, the Nikon D70, D2X and D3X also have relatively weak anti-aliasing filters and also can occasionally exhibit moire. I know this from personal experience because I'm also a Nikon owner.

Tony

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boggis the cat
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The legal system
In reply to illy, May 30, 2011

illy wrote:

Anthony Cheh wrote:

So, would the poster's history be some indication of their motivation and "reputation"?

guilty until proved otherwise?

This is why the past criminal history of the accused is kept from the jury. If you are being tried for a crime that you've committed countless times before then the jury are more likely to believe that you have re-offended.

Internet forums aren't a court of law, however, and it is fair to judge present motivation and behaviour in light of past motivation and behaviour.

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papillon_65
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Re: Distinctions
In reply to illy, May 30, 2011

illy wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

illy wrote:

Anthony Cheh wrote:

So what, in your view, distinguishes a sincere and constructive question from a troll post framed in the guise of question?

They are quite different, aren't they?

Tony

yes they are different but if say someone on this forum you respected asked the same question would you regard it in the same light as Ga's post?

Obviously not because they wouldn't have posted the title of the thread in that way, which is clearly mocking E-5 owners. What sort of reaction do you think I'd get if I posted on the Pentax DSLR forum "Does lowlight=misfocus=good" referring to the K-5 tungsten lighting issue.

-- hide signature --

Smoke me a kipper....i'll be back for breakfast

-- hide signature --

It's a known fact that where there's tea there's hope.
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

misfocus isn't good...is it? But are moire and false detail good if the files work out better?
--
Smoke me a kipper....i'll be back for breakfast

I'd say occasional moire is preferable to a camera that regularly fails to focus in certain lighting, FWIW I don't see lots of E-5 owners complaining about it either, but that's not the issue I'm talking about.

The fact that someone who doesn't own or use the E-5 is trying to make a big deal out of it, that's the real issue.

In my experience Pentax has far more issues with their equipment in terms of reliability and performance yet their forum doesn't get plagued like this one. I would have thought that all these "forum cops" would have far more to talk about over there.
--
It's a known fact that where there's tea there's hope.
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papillon_65
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Re: Agree
In reply to illy, May 30, 2011

illy wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

illy wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

illy wrote:

Anthony Cheh wrote:

Papillon:

I completely agree with your technical analysis and your view of the true motivation and lack of usefulness behind the OP and this thread.

Perhaps Mr. Ga thought he was being "clever" in his sequencing - giving priority and attention to "Moire" first, subordinating "Sharp" by placing it that second and irrevocably wedding it, with an equal sign, to "Moire", and only then asking the question: is it "good".

He was even less coy when he finally said "would you laugh and say 'I'd stay a million miles from that camera', or would you say "hmmm ... that must be a pretty sharp sensor and lens to get that amount of colour moire ... bet its a cracking landscape camera..'

All for truth and neutrality, obviously...

Regards,

Tony

if certain people ask questions then it gets classed as a criticism of 4/3rds....and quite often were no criticism was said, i have just had another case of this myself were a reply bore no resemblance to what i actually said, sometimes the messenger is more important than the message they bear around here.
--
Smoke me a kipper....i'll be back for breakfast

I don't think anyone has a problem with technical debates, it's more a case of who is asking and how they do it. If anybody thinks that the title of the OP is anything less than blatant sarcasm and baiting then they're deluding themselves. His track record speaks for itself. If the post had been titled something like "moire and the E-5" or "Anybody having problems with moire on the E-5?" then the response would have been a lot more civilised. Of course this didn't happen because that was not his intent, it's just another Big Ga fud grenade designed to stir the pot, that is blatantly obvious.
--
It's a known fact that where there's tea there's hope.
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

i read his questions and thought them valid, it's easy to criticise him for his posts but surely the replies he gets can be classed the same way?
--
Smoke me a kipper....i'll be back for breakfast

I'd suggest he often gets the replies his posts deserve, it's not that difficult to construct a post that discusses any potential issues without deliberately being sarcastic and goading. I pretty much keep out of these pointless p$$$ing contests these days because they don't really serve any purpose and because I'd rather not get into 150 post slanging matches. I made an exception in this case because it is so blatantly obvious what is going on here.

The inference is usually that Olympus users themselves are the problem on this forum. This is total crap as I don't see any of the blatant baiting and sarcasm directed at any other forum, often by a group of people who generally don't buy or use the gear they are consistently criticising.
--
It's a known fact that where there's tea there's hope.
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

maybe you should check his posting history and the gear he owns and has used
--
Smoke me a kipper....i'll be back for breakfast

I don't need to, I'm pretty sure he doesn't own an E-5 and his posting history, on this forum in particular, is well known and doesn't exactly serve as a shining beacon of light in terms of tact and diplomacy.
--
It's a known fact that where there's tea there's hope.
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

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Anthony Cheh
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Re: The legal system
In reply to boggis the cat, May 30, 2011

Even in civil cases in most American jurisdictions, prior history is not admissible unless the methodology is strikingly similar or otherwise extremely relevant. The rule is often even stricter here in criminal cases, where additional protections are afforded to the defendant.

But, as you say, in the realm of internet forums, even more so than social interaction in the "real" world, we constantly gauge the motivations and credibility of people through methods that would be excluded in a court of law. We have to.

We examine how the question is framed. We look at the poster's history. Especially in the absence of tone of voice, facial expression and reputation in the community, these are some of the limited tools we have to determine if a poster is wasting our time, or worse.

Now, isn't it ironic how some of the most persistent trolls like to claim they're simply being critical in the pursuit of truth?

Tony

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Big Ga
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Re: Agree
In reply to Anthony Cheh, May 30, 2011

Anthony Cheh wrote:

Papillon:

I completely agree with your technical analysis and your view of the true motivation and lack of usefulness behind the OP and this thread.

Perhaps Mr. Ga thought he was being "clever" in his sequencing - giving priority and attention to "Moire" first, subordinating "Sharp" by placing it that second and irrevocably wedding it, with an equal sign, to "Moire", and only then asking the question: is it "good".

He was even less coy when he finally said "would you laugh and say 'I'd stay a million miles from that camera', or would you say "hmmm ... that must be a pretty sharp sensor and lens to get that amount of colour moire ... bet its a cracking landscape camera..'

All for truth and neutrality, obviously...

?????
What the hell are you people talking about
I've asked extremely straightforward questions.

Please explain what on earth is wrong with "would you laugh and say 'I'd stay a million miles from that camera', or would you say "hmmm ... that must be a pretty sharp sensor and lens to get that amount of colour moire ... bet its a cracking landscape camera.."

How is this somehow against "truth and neutrality"

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Anthony Cheh
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Re: Agree
In reply to Big Ga, May 30, 2011

Big Ga:

Do you truly think we're that stupid and you're much more clever?

Or are you simply self-deceptive?

Or both?

Tony

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papillon_65
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That covers it for me too (nt)
In reply to Anthony Cheh, May 30, 2011
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Big Ga
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Re: Agree
In reply to Anthony Cheh, May 30, 2011

Anthony Cheh wrote:

Big Ga:

Do you truly think we're that stupid and you're much more clever?

I do indeed think you are being really stupid.

Please go back and answer my question and prove me wrong!

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Anthony Cheh
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Your Question Has Already Been Answered
In reply to Big Ga, May 30, 2011

Big Ga:

Scroll up and read multiple responses to your predictable question.

If you'd spend more time actually listening to others and less savoring your self-perceived cleverness, you might learn something.

Tony

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