D7000 colour

Started May 26, 2011 | Discussions
Cytokine
Contributing MemberPosts: 626
Like?
D7000 colour
May 26, 2011

The following are the notes I made from Thoms review of the D7000, they have to be looked at in the context that he is comparing the D7000 with Nikon's top professional camera that cost £5-6000 pounds, the very fact that he is comparing the two cameras speaks volumes about the D7000. http://www.bythom.com/nikond7000review.htm

Notes from Thom’s D7000 review Colour section.

a) Red and blue channel raw responses are a bit different than other Nikon DSLR’s.
b) Clearly Bayer Filtration changes.

c) Red channel is not as good, the Blue channel is better. (Blue channel is often the first and highest noise producer (so increasing blue reduces noise).

d) Colors very slightly subdued some might say flat compared to his D3X on difficult colors like gold’s, bronzes, but also other colors including skin tones.
e) Very subtle and some people wont notice it.

f) Thom cant decide if this is a metamerism that cant be changed, or can be fixed in PP.

I wonder if this is a Nikon change as in Bayer Filtration changes, or is it a feature of the Sony base sensor, and reflects a new direction in sensor design.

John

Cytokine
Contributing MemberPosts: 626
Like?
Re: D7000 colour
In reply to Cytokine, May 26, 2011

DXOMark Relative Color Channel Sensitivities sRGB Primaries.
Ranked in order of least red.

D3X……..R = 0.38 ...G = 1 ...B = 0.8
D200…...R = 0.45 ...G = 1 ...B = 0.76
D7000….R = 0.47 ...G = 1 .. B = 0.67
D300…...R = 0.64 ...G = 1 ...B = 0.78

Looking at this data the red is lowish but the blue is not that high compared to the others.

John

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
whiggy
Regular MemberPosts: 449Gear list
Like?
Re: D7000 colour
In reply to Cytokine, May 26, 2011

Maybe Nikon finally realized that D40 still has the best color reproduction so they tried to replicate that with D7000?

D40 SMI=85
D40….R = 0.47 ...G = 1 .. B = 0.66

 whiggy's gear list:whiggy's gear list
Nikon D40 Nikon D7000 Nikon D5100 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 55-200mm f/4-5.6G VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-105mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR +4 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Cytokine
Contributing MemberPosts: 626
Like?
Re: D7000 colour
In reply to whiggy, May 26, 2011

whiggy wrote:

Maybe Nikon finally realized that D40 still has the best color reproduction so they tried to replicate that with D7000?

D40 SMI=85
D40….R = 0.47 ...G = 1 .. B = 0.66

The more we go forwards the more we go backwards?? That's a pretty mean SMI!

I bet it does flowers really well, The Famous Ronnie Gaubert (Who Sadly died recently)
Used the D200 and preferred the D100 for flowers.

http://www.pbase.com/ronnie_14187/d100___d200_my_favorites

John

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
rhlpetrus
Forum ProPosts: 23,507Gear list
Like?
Re: D7000 colour
In reply to Cytokine, May 26, 2011

I like this part:

"Indeed, so much so that if you leave the camera set at the default settings you'll slightly limit the dynamic range you can capture. I strongly suggest that you be careful to not put too much oomph into your JPEGs, as it's difficult to back out contrast and saturation, once recorded. My personal preference is to set my D7000 for a more accurate, bland look (Neutral, sometimes with -1 Contrast) and add in any contrast and saturation I might want in the final image. However, many D7000 customers are likely to be shoot-but-don't-post-process photographers, and probably won't take my advice. Just be aware that you'll have a tough time with high contrast scenes if you start dialing up the controls to get that punch you want."

This is exactly what I use, lower contrast and saturation in-camera, adjust later. Already done that with D80. I read all these people adding contrast and saturation and then complaining RED is blown, skintone problematic, etc. Of course, what did they expect?

-- hide signature --

Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

 rhlpetrus's gear list:rhlpetrus's gear list
Nikon D7000 Nikon 1 V1 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 12-24mm f/4G ED-IF Nikon AF Nikkor 35mm f/2D Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G VR +3 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Cytokine
Contributing MemberPosts: 626
Like?
Re: D7000 colour
In reply to rhlpetrus, May 27, 2011

rhlpetrus wrote:

I like this part:

"Indeed, so much so that if you leave the camera set at the default settings you'll slightly limit the dynamic range you can capture. I strongly suggest that you be careful to not put too much oomph into your JPEGs, as it's difficult to back out contrast and saturation, once recorded. My personal preference is to set my D7000 for a more accurate, bland look (Neutral, sometimes with -1 Contrast) and add in any contrast and saturation I might want in the final image. However, many D7000 customers are likely to be shoot-but-don't-post-process photographers, and probably won't take my advice. Just be aware that you'll have a tough time with high contrast scenes if you start dialing up the controls to get that punch you want."

This is exactly what I use, lower contrast and saturation in-camera, adjust later. Already done that with D80. I read all these people adding contrast and saturation and then complaining RED is blown, skintone problematic, etc. Of course, what did they expect?

Yes I read that bit in disbelief, his report has been out for sometime but few people have bothered to read it.

John

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Fred Mueller
Senior MemberPosts: 2,346Gear list
Like?
Email conversation with Hogan
In reply to Cytokine, May 27, 2011

I DID read the review, carefully, and subsequently emailed Thom about the color issue....

best

Fred

here is the thread, you have to read it from bottom to top for it to make sense:

========================================

Well, Adobe converters are still putting too much “orange” into NEF files. Try grabbing the Orange Luminance slider in HSL and bringing it down a bit before trying to do other color balancing.

-- hide signature --

Thom Hogan, writer/photographer
Author, Complete Guides to the Nikon cameras (19 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com


From: Fred Mueller
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 11:55:47 -0500
To: Thom Hogan
Subject: Re: Color response of D7000

Tom,

Thanks for your brief response – in words from your D7k review:

“Which brings me to my final comment about color: it's ever so slightly subdued (some would say flat) from what I see in my D3x. This tends to happen on very tough to capture colors, like golds and bronzes, but it can happen in other colors, as well, including skin tones.”

I am trying to decide if I want to give a 3rd D7000 body a chance because on paper the camera makes perfect sense for me.....and is brilliantly featured.

Have had two D7000 bodies. Both had focus issues, not user error, except in the very beginning. All my AFS lenses 16-85, 70-300, 35 1.8 G, and Sigma 8-16 mostly back focused. At first “some” of the problem was self induced, but not with the 2nd body which seemed to be worse actually. Both were purchased before Christmas.

My question about color: I could see a “break” in the (to my eye) usual Nikon color response, especially skin which looked “flat” using your words. My descriptive would be “mono” - as if one hue. I also see a sort of yellowish over all cast in many shots. I had put a a little B/M bias in Auto WB, but not really happy with that either. All of this subtle overtly, but then not so subtle finally.....but the issue also made me question what I have been doing with the older bodies (to hyped?) and I thought there might be some additional insight about the issue from you. Maybe actually more color accurate; just that reality stinks ?

I personally have owned a D40 (45,000 clicks in two years) and have shot my son’s D300 enough (5,000 clicks? in two years). All my lenses focus without issue on both of these bodies. The D40 is slow but very accurate to focus in low light. I have used MF lenses on the D40 a lot as well. I just “look”.

My workflow is usually RAW sRGB, Bridge to ACR to CS3, and now CS5. Did not like the ACR 6.3 sharpening of D7k RAW files compared to NX2, but do not want to use NX2 for the interface and speed.

Thanks Tom – file as user feedback if you are too busy to reply

Fred Mueller

On 2/4/11 2:24 PM, "Thom Hogan" wrote:
In what way?

--
Thom Hogan, writer/photographer
Author, Complete Guides to the Nikon cameras (19 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com

From: Fred Mueller
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 12:13:29 -0500
To: Thom Hogan
Subject: Color response of D7000

Wondering if you will expand on this topic soon or ever – web site or elsewhere?

Fred Mueller

Southboro, MA

 Fred Mueller's gear list:Fred Mueller's gear list
Nikon D600
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Cytokine
Contributing MemberPosts: 626
Like?
Re: Email conversation with Hogan
In reply to Fred Mueller, May 27, 2011

Thom's Reply to Fred Mueller (This did not appear in your post but does when I quote reply). John

Well, Adobe converters are still putting too much “orange” into NEF files. Try grabbing the Orange Luminance slider in HSL and bringing it down a bit before trying to do other color balancing.

-

Thom Hogan, writer/photographer
Author, Complete Guides to the Nikon cameras (19 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com


From: Fred Mueller
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 11:55:47 -0500
To: Thom Hogan
Subject: Re: Color response of D7000

Tom,

Thanks for your brief response – in words from your D7k review:

“Which brings me to my final comment about color: it's ever so slightly subdued (some would say flat) from what I see in my D3x. This tends to happen on very tough to capture colors, like golds and bronzes, but it can happen in other colors, as well, including skin tones.”

I am trying to decide if I want to give a 3rd D7000 body a chance because on paper the camera makes perfect sense for me.....and is brilliantly featured.

Have had two D7000 bodies. Both had focus issues, not user error, except in the very beginning. All my AFS lenses 16-85, 70-300, 35 1.8 G, and Sigma 8-16 mostly back focused. At first “some” of the problem was self induced, but not with the 2nd body which seemed to be worse actually. Both were purchased before Christmas.

My question about color: I could see a “break” in the (to my eye) usual Nikon color response, especially skin which looked “flat” using your words. My descriptive would be “mono” - as if one hue. I also see a sort of yellowish over all cast in many shots. I had put a a little B/M bias in Auto WB, but not really happy with that either. All of this subtle overtly, but then not so subtle finally.....but the issue also made me question what I have been doing with the older bodies (to hyped?) and I thought there might be some additional insight about the issue from you. Maybe actually more color accurate; just that reality stinks ?

I personally have owned a D40 (45,000 clicks in two years) and have shot my son’s D300 enough (5,000 clicks? in two years). All my lenses focus without issue on both of these bodies. The D40 is slow but very accurate to focus in low light. I have used MF lenses on the D40 a lot as well. I just “look”.

My workflow is usually RAW sRGB, Bridge to ACR to CS3, and now CS5. Did not like the ACR 6.3 sharpening of D7k RAW files compared to NX2, but do not want to use NX2 for the interface and speed.

Thanks Tom – file as user feedback if you are too busy to reply

Fred Mueller

On 2/4/11 2:24 PM, "Thom Hogan" wrote:

In what way?

-- hide signature --

Thom Hogan, writer/photographer
Author, Complete Guides to the Nikon cameras (19 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com

From: Fred Mueller
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 12:13:29 -0500
To: Thom Hogan
Subject: Color response of D7000

Wondering if you will expand on this topic soon or ever – web site or elsewhere?

Fred Mueller

Southboro, MA

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
eNo
eNo
Forum ProPosts: 11,732
Like?
Re: D7000 colour
In reply to Cytokine, May 27, 2011

Cytokine wrote:

f) Thom cant decide if this is a metamerism that cant be changed, or can be fixed in PP.

I'm putting an article (or 2) together on my site to try to answer this very question. My early impressions are that it is correctible, but not through a very practical method. Hint: reference shots with gray cards or equivalent & reliable WB references are needed, and not many people will want to go that route.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seeking the heart and spirit in each image

Gallery and blog: http://imagesbyeduardo.com
Flickr stream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/22061657@N03

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
eNo
eNo
Forum ProPosts: 11,732
Like?
Re: Email conversation with Hogan
In reply to Fred Mueller, May 27, 2011

Interesting, so in his opinion it comes down to the NEF/raw converter. Hmm. I've been using ViewNX2 for my early color tests, and so long as I white balance with a reference gray card, all is (reasonably) well. Now that I'm switching my workflow to LR3 and CS5, I'm wondering if I'm going to have the same option(s). My guess is that I will so long as I create color profiles for each of my cameras with a Colorchecker or similar approach.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seeking the heart and spirit in each image

Gallery and blog: http://imagesbyeduardo.com
Flickr stream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/22061657@N03

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Cytokine
Contributing MemberPosts: 626
Like?
Re: D7000 colour
In reply to eNo, May 27, 2011

eNo wrote:

Cytokine wrote:

f) Thom cant decide if this is a metamerism that cant be changed, or can be fixed in PP.

I'm putting an article (or 2) together on my site to try to answer this very question. My early impressions are that it is correctible, but not through a very practical method. Hint: reference shots with gray cards or equivalent & reliable WB references are needed, and not many people will want to go that route.

I have just read your other post on sharpening, and think you are on the right track, The colour issue or non issue is I think the same, The D5100 is an amateur camera and a very good one and everything is more baked in than D7000, which leans to the pro-side, but is set up like an amateur camera from default, this, as you said about sharpening is all there and very good, you just have to get rid of the amateur settings and configure the camera for each individuals needs. "The D200 was accused of having no sharpening in its JPEGS at all," and when I use Raw I always add sharpening even if its just a small amount.

Nikon was known for making cameras that pros could work with which meant bland settings and each pro added the pop he wanted more easily in Post Processing. The same was true I think with sharpening. The D7000 sits in between category and I think is confusing people. That's why people trading down or people that know their craft have no problem. (Some problems will be faulty cameras with DSLR sales of over 4 million, even 4% faulty is a huge number).

John

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Cytokine
Contributing MemberPosts: 626
Like?
Re: D7000 colour
In reply to Cytokine, May 28, 2011

This review in the British journal of photography has some interesting comments on D7000 colours and High ISO Raw noise, also look at the Q&A where in response to a question regarding a Mamiya 645, the author replies "However, the accuracy of focus, modern lens technology and the good colours the D7000 produces will probably mean you'll be happy with the technical "quality" of the image"

http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/test/2024912/test-nikon-d7000-baby-d3s

John

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Swedish Hambern
Contributing MemberPosts: 751
Like?
Re: D7000 colour
In reply to Cytokine, May 31, 2011

Heard anything more about this? Hogans review is really interesting. I have also noticed the strange behaviour of the red channel (which messes up my skin tones). Would be nice to learn more about the problem.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
eNo
eNo
Forum ProPosts: 11,732
Like?
Re: D7000 colour
In reply to Swedish Hambern, May 31, 2011

Swedish Hambern wrote:

Heard anything more about this? Hogans review is really interesting. I have also noticed the strange behaviour of the red channel (which messes up my skin tones). Would be nice to learn more about the problem.

Please define "messes up"... Though there is a noticeable difference (after some heavy squinting), I'm not convinced that the D7000's skin tones are "messed up" when one controls for WB and applies the same (appropriate) picture control.

-- hide signature --

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seeking the heart and spirit in each image

Gallery and blog: http://imagesbyeduardo.com
Flickr stream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/22061657@N03

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
rhlpetrus
Forum ProPosts: 23,507Gear list
Like?
Can't see Thom's response, could you please link it? n/t
In reply to Cytokine, May 31, 2011
-- hide signature --

Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

 rhlpetrus's gear list:rhlpetrus's gear list
Nikon D7000 Nikon 1 V1 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 12-24mm f/4G ED-IF Nikon AF Nikkor 35mm f/2D Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G VR +3 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
rhlpetrus
Forum ProPosts: 23,507Gear list
Like?
Good reference on color management and color balance
In reply to Cytokine, May 31, 2011

Besides the usual internet sources and intro texts, is there a really good reference book/article on color management? I used to do mostly b&w for my more serious stuff, but I'm changing that and would like to go deeper into it.

I think there are some technical issues that people gloss over, like what happens actually with color balance when one changes light temperature. I think, in principle, it's impossible, with just one variable (temperature) to control imbalances. secondly, likely cameras respond differently to those imbalances, depending on CFA and algorithms to mix channels.

For example: suppose you are in a ambient with wall of a certain strong color. Even though the light source may be perfectly balanced, the reflections on walls coming back on subject will distort balance strongly, so that reading a gray card won't really get it right and may even distort results even more, trying to get the "average" temperature. Likely, in such a situation, it'd be better to read the light source directly and let the walls contribution be recorded faithfully.

What do you think?

Thanks, Renato.
--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

 rhlpetrus's gear list:rhlpetrus's gear list
Nikon D7000 Nikon 1 V1 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 12-24mm f/4G ED-IF Nikon AF Nikkor 35mm f/2D Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G VR +3 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Swedish Hambern
Contributing MemberPosts: 751
Like?
Re: D7000 colour
In reply to eNo, May 31, 2011

I guess we all just got different tolerance thresholds. While some can live with the skin colors of D7000 others simply can't. I guess it's a matter of how picky you are.

eNo wrote:

Swedish Hambern wrote:

Heard anything more about this? Hogans review is really interesting. I have also noticed the strange behaviour of the red channel (which messes up my skin tones). Would be nice to learn more about the problem.

Please define "messes up"... Though there is a noticeable difference (after some heavy squinting), I'm not convinced that the D7000's skin tones are "messed up" when one controls for WB and applies the same (appropriate) picture control.

-- hide signature --

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seeking the heart and spirit in each image

Gallery and blog: http://imagesbyeduardo.com
Flickr stream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/22061657@N03

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mako2011
Mako2011 MOD
Forum ProPosts: 16,230
Like?
Re: D7000 colour
In reply to Swedish Hambern, May 31, 2011

Swedish Hambern wrote:

I guess we all just got different tolerance thresholds. While some can live with the skin colors of D7000 others simply can't. I guess it's a matter of how picky you are.

You could just build a custom Picture control profile in VNX2 using the Picture Control Utility that matches the D70. I think they already provide some for other bodies. You shoot Raw so that is a very easy solution.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads