vote the price

Started May 23, 2011 | Discussions
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KAF18500
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vote the price
May 23, 2011

Realistically, vote a price here, loud and clear. Enough curses and rants, lets get down to business.

1. Is 9.700 acceptable if it comes bundled with 3 lens made specifically with SD-1 in mind?
2. USD 4.800 - body alone
3. Must be USD 2.700 - body alone.

Please keep in mind (3) would not be financially practical for Sigma, but it is your vote.

mugent
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Re: vote the price
In reply to KAF18500, May 23, 2011

To be honest, I think the correct price will depend on the final quality of the results.

If the results are similar, or even a little worse than the Leica S2, then the price is reasonable, remember, the S2, in the UK at least, is around 3x the price of the SD1.

To my eye, the results of the SD1 are amazing, but I don't have enough knowledge of competing systems to say if they are better or worse than, say, the MF Pentax.

I don't really understand the fury of people here, all they did was make a product a lot of people cannot afford (or are prepared to spend), it doesn't make my SD15 a worse camera.

If the results are in the same ballpark as the S2 or Pentax 645D, why shouldn't they charge a similar amount?

MT

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KAF18500
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Re: vote the price
In reply to mugent, May 23, 2011

Reviews and previews will be available soon enough.

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JLK
JLK
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Here's the deal...
In reply to KAF18500, May 23, 2011

The discussion around this camera from Sigma indicated that the price would be competitive with other APS-C cameras (the '7D' quote). Without any real information on their manufacturing costs, I'm skeptical that they didn't have good idea about sensor costs (yield) before this. In fact, I'd bet that the sensor was already done. So I'm basing my assumptions on this camera costing them no more than $1500 to manufacture.

The 7D's street price is $1700 or so. My instinct would be to place the price of the SD1 at or near that price: so say in the $1700 - $2000 range. Compete with the crop cameras on their own terms. And without having shot the SD1, I'd guess the following:

Features (live view, video, etc): other cameras
FPS: relatively even
buffer: other cameras.
IQ: not even close---the SD1 trounces.

The uniqueness of the sensor is what I love about the camera, but Sigma needs marketshare and mindshare. Their 'extra sauce' comes from the Foveon sensor. Stripping that out of the camera, you have a camera that competes in the mid pack of the APS-C dSLR market. Add the sensor, and the IQ can compete with the low end of MF cameras. Sell it for the APS-C market, and actually sell more than a few hundred cameras.

-- hide signature --

Jim

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3dreal
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Re: vote the price
In reply to KAF18500, May 23, 2011

Before discussing a "realistic" price we must see large prints,have raws. The "eiffeltower" image(las vegas) by kendall gelner is promising.

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stanislaw stitchanow
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Re: vote the price
In reply to KAF18500, May 23, 2011

if 3 is not financial practical for Sigma, why have they announced a price around the 7D price? And don't tell me the voice of Marco Hahn Sigma Germany, or the one from Sigma US is not official!
I would not pay more than 2500 Euros and by that I would really feel some pain.

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SandyF
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Re: Here's the deal...
In reply to JLK, May 23, 2011

JLK wrote:

The discussion around this camera from Sigma indicated that the price would be competitive with other APS-C cameras (the '7D' quote). Without any real information on their manufacturing costs, I'm skeptical that they didn't have good idea about sensor costs (yield) before this. In fact, I'd bet that the sensor was already done. So I'm basing my assumptions on this camera costing them no more than $1500 to manufacture.

The 7D's street price is $1700 or so. My instinct would be to place the price of the SD1 at or near that price: so say in the $1700 - $2000 range. Compete with the crop cameras on their own terms. And without having shot the SD1, I'd guess the following:

Features (live view, video, etc): other cameras
FPS: relatively even
buffer: other cameras.
IQ: not even close---the SD1 trounces.

The uniqueness of the sensor is what I love about the camera, but Sigma needs marketshare and mindshare. Their 'extra sauce' comes from the Foveon sensor. Stripping that out of the camera, you have a camera that competes in the mid pack of the APS-C dSLR market. Add the sensor, and the IQ can compete with the low end of MF cameras. Sell it for the APS-C market, and actually sell more than a few hundred cameras.

-- hide signature --

Jim

Exactly, Jim. Well put. I hope you write Sigma (I have FWIW).

I had anticipated up to $2000-$2500 and am okay with that (the lower the better of course). I was also planning on buying more lenses, probably primes, first the 88mm EX then the new 50-150mm OS (or 150mm EX prime).

Profit for Sigma comes from selling lenses IMHO. Gain market share and mind share with the camera: sell lenses.
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Boris
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Re: vote the price
In reply to KAF18500, May 23, 2011

I have saved $2000US for the future purchase of the SD1 and am willing to go to $2500US....but I am no pro so to spend $10K on a camera no matter how incredible good the IQ might be is far out of reach.
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AngryCorgi
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Re: Here's the deal...
In reply to SandyF, May 23, 2011

IMO, anything over US$2k street price is unnacceptable. They skimped on features and components in several areas to keep the price down (460k dot LCD?? This is 2011, not 2007!), making the nearly US$10k MSRP even that much more ridiculous. This is Sigma punishing all the SA-mount adopters for their blind loyalty.
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SandyF
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should read 85mm prime eom
In reply to SandyF, May 23, 2011

should read 85mm prime not 88.... typo

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BarrytheB
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no brainer
In reply to stanislaw stitchanow, May 23, 2011

same range as 5D MK2 and D700- $2500-2900 MSRP

Its simply a high end prosumer camera with a limited feature set and very high IQ
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yukoner2
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Re: vote the price
In reply to KAF18500, May 23, 2011

I was expecting, and would be happy to pay around $2500 USD.

...that being said, I have no idea of what the production costs of this unit are so it will be priced at whatever is necessary and we will purchase...or not as the individual case may be.

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KAF18500
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Re: vote the price
In reply to yukoner2, May 23, 2011

There was no intention to bait or let down fellow customers that have sticked for so many years. The last six months R&D, component and production cost have gone much above projected figures.

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ToasterFlyer
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Re: vote the price
In reply to KAF18500, May 23, 2011

KAF18500 wrote:

Realistically, vote a price here, loud and clear. Enough curses and rants, lets get down to business.

1. Is 9.700 acceptable if it comes bundled with 3 lens made specifically with SD-1 in mind?
2. USD 4.800 - body alone
3. Must be USD 2.700 - body alone.

Please keep in mind (3) would not be financially practical for Sigma, but it is your vote.

The price should be what was quoted many times in the past 7D price(MSRP) range or even slightly above..

Rich
ny

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ToasterFlyer
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Re: vote the price
In reply to KAF18500, May 23, 2011

KAF18500 wrote:

There was no intention to bait or let down fellow customers that have sticked for so many years. The last six months R&D, component and production cost have gone much above projected figures.

Eh fooy.. I don't buy that for one minute...

Rich
ny

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coraxphoto
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Re: vote the price
In reply to KAF18500, May 23, 2011

Honestly, I don't know what was legit info or just consumer word of mouth, but for months I have been reading that the price was guessed to be around $2,000 based on hints from Sigma. I was planning on buying one after Christmas if the price was going to be $2,000. I think what they have done is absurd. If they knew the price was going to be even $5,000, they should have had some Sigma insiders hint that the $2,000 figure circulating through the grapevine was off base because of blah blah blah.

This camera will have to be earth shattering to woo non-Sigma pro shooters. I honestly want to know how many they sell globally for this crazy price. Now, had they offered the SD1 with an optional Nikon or Canon mount (the way Fujifilm did a Nikon mount w/ their DSLRs) in addition to the Sigma mount, then I could see some non-Sigma people CONSIDERING this camera. I just don't see who their audience is realistically going to end up being for this thing at that price.

Personally, I have been using my SD14 with mixed affection for a few years. It has always been buggy with autofocus and that annoying buffer overload/lockup. I was saving to make the jump to the SD1, but with the huge gap in the hinted market slot and the actual price of this thing, I feel a bit insulted. Pentax's K5 has been giving me thoughts of leaving Sigma, and I'm seriously considering that now. I can't afford the SD1's crazy price, I don't trust the SD15 to be different enough from the quirkiness of my SD14, and it may be time to say goodbye now. Probably not the consumer reaction the SD1 was supposed to generate, though I may be completely alone in that mindset...

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KAF18500
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Re: vote the price
In reply to coraxphoto, May 23, 2011

Give 2 weeks. Although the the rise of R&D, component change and production have increased in the last 6 months, the current launch price is above the range. Internal discussion is going on. Please wait.

There are no takes for (1) even if bundled with 3 lens?

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stanislaw stitchanow
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Problem with lens bundle
In reply to KAF18500, May 23, 2011

I have many many EX lenses in SA mount.
I doubt there would be any bundle I would bite.
As I do not need the offered lenses or already have it.
This might be the same for others.
Also it is just the sheer amount of money you know.

I am sure I spend thousands of Euros in new Sigma Equipement, but part after part and not all at once. that makes a huge difference.

Also what I see on the Sigma US site, they are offering the old 70-200mm in the bundle not the new OS, which makes the offering even less attractive.

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jmcminn1076
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Re: vote the price
In reply to KAF18500, May 23, 2011

KAF18500 wrote:

Give 2 weeks. Although the the rise of R&D, component change and production have increased in the last 6 months, the current launch price is above the range. Internal discussion is going on. Please wait.

There are no takes for (1) even if bundled with 3 lens?

well, 99% of SD1 users are going to, or have already bought Sigma glass. There really is no consumer advantage to a bundle at that price point. Part of the problem here is that Sigma glass is not expensive relative to the MSRP of the camera. The most expensive practical Sigma lens (the 120-300 f/2.8) has a MSRP of half what the camera in question is trying to fetch, and even it is someone special purpose. For the must have lenses, the 17-50 and 70-200 2.8 OS lenses total rougly $2000, plus another $1000 lens, and you're still talking $6500 for the camera body at the $9800 MSRP point.

To strip this down to the core elements, Sigma has an R&D cost associated with the camera that is fixed no matter how many cameras they sell. They also have a manufacturing cost that is per camera. The difference between sale price and per unit manufacturing cost per unit times the number of units sold is the number Sigma needs to maximize. (if the R&D was too high, they just lose, because they can't get that back by upping the price of the camera since volume is inverse to price).

So if the manufacturing cost is really such that they can't sell the thing above manufactureing cost in the $2000-$3000 range, then they should just kill the product, or better hire someone else to design the manufacturing project, because there is no way this should cost that much to manufacture -- if it did, the SD14 and SD15 wouldn't be viable at their price points either.

The latter case, would be that they are trying to sell n units at huge profit, instead of N units at smaller profit. The problem here is that n is exponentially less than N. I suppose at the crazy MSRP, the profit P is also an order of magnitude higher than 7D priced profit p, but I think N is a few orders of magniture higher than n. Let's assume the extreme... that the unit costs $1500 to make. Priced at $2300, they make a measly $800/unit sold. At $9800, they make $8000/unit sold (rounding for easy math). That is a 10x difference. But let's assume they can only sell 1000 of them at $10000 -- that still means they make MUCH more back if they can sell 100,000 at the lower price, since that is a 100x difference in quantity. (In fact, it's $72,000,000 more(!)) Obviously there is a bell curve between selling it at a penny over cost to manufacture and selling it at $8000 over cost where at some point volume times profit is maximized. Clearly the $9800 price point is NOT that point.

The only way this strategy makes any sense at all is if they only think they can manufacture "n" and not "N". This might even be the case given the earthquake, in which case you can expect the price to come down when manufacturing gets back to normal (although, from a long term marketing stance, I think they'd have been better off just having huge back orders than alienating their market, or even auctioning queue priority to make the extra money from the have to have it first crowd -- at least then people would know what they were paying for).

Assuming based on post history that KAF18500 might be a Sigma representative trying to figure out how to sort this mess out, I think the maximal volume times price is somewhere in the $2000 to $3000 range. I can't imagine having many takers above the price of the 5dII or D700. I personally would probably bite in this range. I don't forsee paying more than that for the camera, regardless of how good it is. As was pointed out above, in this range you're competing with D300s and D700 offerings, and while the IQ of the foveon may well blow those cameras away, I can promise you just on the published specs and the pictures of the camera that my D700 handles MUCH better when it comes to controls, AF system, shutter speed, frame rate, flash system, lens choice, and pretty much everything that isn't the foveon sensor.

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eugene69
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Re: should read 85mm prime eom
In reply to SandyF, May 23, 2011

SandyF wrote:

should read 85mm prime not 88.... typo

maybe its a typo error it's "Yen" sign instead of a "dollar" sign ; ) on its price

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