Quo Vadis Nex?

Started May 16, 2011 | Discussions
Michael Kaminski
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Quo Vadis Nex?
May 16, 2011

Just saw the new lenses that should appear on the market during the next years. If the rumor site ie right, then the new high quality standard zoom is nearly as long as the E18-200 lens. The front element looks quite large, so it might be a 2,8 lens. However what's the point of havng such a huge lens on a nex? I likeed the Sony R1 a lot, but at least it was a relatively cheap fixed lens combination.

The "NEX-7" might be bigger as well. But then again we are in SLR-size interchangeable lens mount world. The Zeiss lens isn't probably going to be cheap either. So we have a huge body with Contrast AF, a big and expensive lens with a new mount, and a very small lineup. How does this positopn on the market? What's the point of buing this camera over an D-SLR, (the A77 for exmaple)?
Any constructive comments are appreciated.
Many greetings
Michael

Henry Richardson
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7 new NEX lenses for 2012
In reply to Michael Kaminski, May 16, 2011

I just took a look to see what you were talking about:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/

I see the photo of the 7 new NEX lenses for 2012. I am surprised and disappointed that there are no small or pancake lenses.

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gfrensen
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Re: Quo Vadis Nex?
In reply to Michael Kaminski, May 16, 2011

Michael Kaminski wrote:

Just saw the new lenses that should appear on the market during the next years. If the rumor site ie right, then the new high quality standard zoom is nearly as long as the E18-200 lens. The front element looks quite large, so it might be a 2,8 lens. However what's the point of havng such a huge lens on a nex? I likeed the Sony R1 a lot, but at least it was a relatively cheap fixed lens combination.

To start with, Good High quality, fast lenses are large (for APS sized sensors that is) So very small ("pancake lenses") are compromised in some way. When Sony did come with the smal 16mm lens the question about the quality was all over the internet.

About the R1, it was a lot larger then the Nex, The Nex can be very small with the 16mm lens, The R1 was always as big as it was. The Nex can schrink (wwith the 16mm) or grow (with the other lenses)

The "NEX-7" might be bigger as well. But then again we are in SLR-size interchangeable lens mount world. The Zeiss lens isn't probably going to be cheap either. So we have a huge body with Contrast AF, a big and expensive lens with a new mount, and a very small lineup. How does this positopn on the market? What's the point of buing this camera over an D-SLR, (the A77 for exmaple)?
Any constructive comments are appreciated.
Many greetings
Michael

Youn talk about a huge body for the Nex7, butr you didn't see the camera, as nobody here ever saw the Nex7. So yes, maybe the Nex7 will be close in size to the G3 of Panasonic, but Sony could have some surpices, as they had with the Nex, like the Nex3/5 Sony could make the smallest ILC with EVF in the world...

The Nex still is small with the 16mm pancake, a lot smaller then ANY other ILC camera. So you can buy the 16mm for fun and hiking/ low weight trips etc. And have the bigger, better lenses for the rest. I don't think the high qulity lenses will sell a lot, but they do atract people to the brand...

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Michael Kaminski
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Re: Quo Vadis Nex?
In reply to gfrensen, May 16, 2011

gfrensen wrote:

To start with, Good High quality, fast lenses are large (for APS sized sensors that is)

That's the question. Is that really so? Are these new lenses just normal lens designs for cameras with mirrorbox? Is it really not possible to make smaller high quality zoom lenses for mirrorless cameras?

About the R1, it was a lot larger then the Nex, The Nex can be very small with the 16mm lens, The R1 was always as big as it was. The Nex can schrink (wwith the 16mm) or grow (with the other lenses)

I'm not talking about pancakelenses. It's about highquality zooms. The R1 had a 24-120mm lens with aperture 2,8-4,8 for an APS-C sensor. And the dimensions were 139mmx168mmx97mm. So for what it delivered it had a quite small lens. (By the way it sold with the Zeiss lens for 950.-€)!

The new Zeiss alone will most likely not cross the table for less than 500.-€. The Nex 7 will also be quite more expensive so we will surely be in the realm of DSLR. If it competes in prize with an DSLR and is of nearly the same size, where's the advantage of the NEX? If the lenses were small and expensive I could see the point.

The only way the lens could convince if it delivered a similar zoomrange like the R1.

Youn talk about a huge body for the Nex7, butr you didn't see the camera, as nobody here ever saw the Nex7. So yes, maybe the Nex7 will be close in size to the G3 of Panasonic, but Sony could have some surpices, as they had with the Nex, like the Nex3/5 Sony could make the smallest ILC with EVF in the world...

OK, htere were just some rumors it would look like the od Minolta A1, and honestly I'm fine with a bigger camera body. The NEX feels anyway a bit too small for my hands, and if I want more manual controls I'm OK with a bigger body.
My only concern is the lens size and if the unique selling point still exists.

Furthermore I#m not going to buy if I'm screwed with the emerors new cloth. And thats what many will see the same way.
Greets
Michael

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gfrensen
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Re: Quo Vadis Nex?
In reply to Michael Kaminski, May 16, 2011

Michael Kaminski wrote:

gfrensen wrote:

To start with, Good High quality, fast lenses are large (for APS sized sensors that is)

That's the question. Is that really so? Are these new lenses just normal lens designs for cameras with mirrorbox? Is it really not possible to make smaller high quality zoom lenses for mirrorless cameras?

Well YES when you want a fast lens you need large glass surfaces, so larger lenses.

Then to give a large FL the front lens has to be at a given distance from the sensor, nothing can be done about that ( or you have to make a miror lens or a colapseble one). And take a good look at real high quality glas for every cameraq, high quality means bigger lenses...

About the R1, it was a lot larger then the Nex, The Nex can be very small with the 16mm lens, The R1 was always as big as it was. The Nex can schrink (wwith the 16mm) or grow (with the other lenses)

I'm not talking about pancakelenses. It's about highquality zooms. The R1 had a 24-120mm lens with aperture 2,8-4,8 for an APS-C sensor. And the dimensions were 139mmx168mmx97mm. So for what it delivered it had a quite small lens. (By the way it sold with the Zeiss lens for 950.-€)!

Yes I remember DPreview told that the lens alone was good for the price of the R1.

The new Zeiss alone will most likely not cross the table for less than 500.-€. The Nex 7 will also be quite more expensive so we will surely be in the realm of DSLR. If it competes in prize with an DSLR and is of nearly the same size, where's the advantage of the NEX? If the lenses were small and expensive I could see the point.

Well size is one benefit of the Nex, but the capability of using almost any lens(with adapter) is an other. The fact there is no mirror that gives vibration or light loss is an other.

The only way the lens could convince if it delivered a similar zoomrange like the R1.

No not totaly true, there are many here waiting for fast primes, high quality zooms with a small range, others wants a not toexpancive 50-200mm lens others want macro, or big tele or....

Youn talk about a huge body for the Nex7, butr you didn't see the camera, as nobody here ever saw the Nex7. So yes, maybe the Nex7 will be close in size to the G3 of Panasonic, but Sony could have some surpices, as they had with the Nex, like the Nex3/5 Sony could make the smallest ILC with EVF in the world...

OK, htere were just some rumors it would look like the od Minolta A1, and honestly I'm fine with a bigger camera body. The NEX feels anyway a bit too small for my hands, and if I want more manual controls I'm OK with a bigger body.
My only concern is the lens size and if the unique selling point still exists.

Furthermore I#m not going to buy if I'm screwed with the emerors new cloth. And thats what many will see the same way.

Look how people are buying FF cameras (big and heavy, but with superior IQ in creativety, others are just buying a Cellphone, for the small size and the camra inside...

You have to buy the camera you like, is that a mirrorles? OK If it is a DSLR Fine,! You want the P&S? Go vor it etc.... You have to use the ccamera, go for the one you like best!

Greets
Michael

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Michael Kaminski
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Re: Quo Vadis Nex?
In reply to gfrensen, May 16, 2011

Unfortunately what I want doesn't exist yet.

A 24MP Foveon FX sensor that with 14 stops of DR and clean ISO 3200 in a smallish Hasselbladbody. An adaptor to mount all kind of lenses with AF for 1000.-€
We've always been far from that.

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rrfischer
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Re: Quo Vadis Nex?
In reply to gfrensen, May 16, 2011

gfrensen wrote:

Well YES when you want a fast lens you need large glass surfaces, so larger lenses.

Then to give a large FL the front lens has to be at a given distance from the sensor, nothing can be done about that ( or you have to make a miror lens or a colapseble one).

Distance of the front glass of the lens has nothing to do with its focal length. On a pin hole camera, the pin is at a distance from the film equal to the focal length. When you place a lens in front of the film, then the focal length is the distance from the film plane to a point where the light converges, which is also dependent on the shape of the lens. I guarantee you that my cheap Kalimar 500 mm refractor (not reflex) lens doesn't have half meter of length (about 35 cm actually, counting the registration distance).

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wfektar
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Re: Quo Vadis Nex?
In reply to gfrensen, May 16, 2011

gfrensen wrote:

Michael Kaminski wrote:

gfrensen wrote:

To start with, Good High quality, fast lenses are large (for APS sized sensors that is)

That's the question. Is that really so? Are these new lenses just normal lens designs for cameras with mirrorbox? Is it really not possible to make smaller high quality zoom lenses for mirrorless cameras?

Well YES when you want a fast lens you need large glass surfaces, so larger lenses.

Well, there's large, as in larger than a pancake, and there's large, like fast SLR lenses. If you don't have to clear a mirror box, even fast lenses can be reasonably sized. Look at the M-mount (or M42) lenses vs comparable SLR lenses. So Mike Kaminsky's question is a reasonable one.

Then to give a large FL the front lens has to be at a given distance from the sensor, nothing can be done about that ( or you have to make a miror lens or a colapseble one).

I think you mean the rear nodal point, but then that's what telephotos are for.

And take a good look at real high quality glas for every cameraq, high quality means bigger lenses...

Summilux, Summicron, Voigt 35/1.4, Nokton, even the Noctilux 50/1 isn't too huge for its speed. Compare to SLR lenses.

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parallaxproblem
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Re: Quo Vadis Nex?
In reply to gfrensen, May 16, 2011

gfrensen wrote:

Michael Kaminski wrote:

Just saw the new lenses that should appear on the market during the next years. If the rumor site ie right, then the new high quality standard zoom is nearly as long as the E18-200 lens. The front element looks quite large, so it might be a 2,8 lens. However what's the point of havng such a huge lens on a nex? I likeed the Sony R1 a lot, but at least it was a relatively cheap fixed lens combination.

To start with, Good High quality, fast lenses are large (for APS sized sensors that is) So very small ("pancake lenses") are compromised in some way. When Sony did come with the smal 16mm lens the question about the quality was all over the internet.

I hate to keep bringing up the Samsung 30/2 pancake lens here

No... strike that, actually I rather like mentioning that lens

Samsung seem to have managed a good quality, small, cheap but fast lens here in a very desireable focal length even though the company have very little previous optical expertise (their SLR stuff were all re-badged Pentax lenses) and aren't even using one of the 'good' OEM brands to manufacture it for them (my guess is that they've got Samyang making them)

The 16/2.8's complaints seem mainly down to sample variation caused by questionable quality control in the new Thai lens plant and the compromises implicit in desigining a lens specifically to be used with two different teleconverters without making it clear to customers that this is what is being done (why not sell it as a kit with the two adaptors for $400 instead of trying to pretend that it is a 'kit lens option' on its own? Then people might be happier with the optical compromises at 16mm!)

Although the shorter NEX registration distance gives their lenses a slight size disadvantage against Samsung's NX lenses, the NEX is clearly marketted on size and so Sony's seeming refusal to make small lenses to go with it is both bizarre and rather frustrating

Samsung continue to show that it would be possible for them to follow such a path and still maintain decent IQ and affordable lenses. I hope Sony decide to change their lens roadmap accordingly

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Henry Richardson
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Voigtlander Ultron 40mm f2 for FF
In reply to gfrensen, May 16, 2011

gfrensen wrote:

To start with, Good High quality, fast lenses are large (for APS sized sensors that is)

Here is the Voigtlander Ultron 40mm f2 pancake for FF SLRs:

http://www.adorama.com/VT402PX.html?utm_term=Other&utm_medium=Shopping%20Site&utm_campaign=Other&utm_source=gbase

I wonder if it was for APS-C and for NEX instead of an SLR if it could be even smaller or maybe the same size?

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Michael Kaminski
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Re: Quo Vadis Nex?
In reply to wfektar, May 17, 2011

Also note the prototype of the Sigma (what was it 30mm) lens for NEX. Here also the lens is longer than it's counterpart for SLRs. Which brings me to the conclusion, that these lenses are not designed for Mirrorless cameras, but just adaptations from SLR lenses, with a built in adaptor and distance ring to fit them to a NEX.

Sorry, no offence, but I wonder if the System is not to be meant to be a serious try.
Greets
Michael

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blue_skies
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Re: Quo Vadis Nex?
In reply to Michael Kaminski, May 17, 2011

Michael Kaminski wrote:

Just saw the new lenses that should appear on the market during the next years. If the rumor site ie right, then the new high quality standard zoom is nearly as long as the E18-200 lens. The front element looks quite large, so it might be a 2,8 lens. However what's the point of havng such a huge lens on a nex? I likeed the Sony R1 a lot, but at least it was a relatively cheap fixed lens combination.

The "NEX-7" might be bigger as well. But then again we are in SLR-size interchangeable lens mount world. The Zeiss lens isn't probably going to be cheap either. So we have a huge body with Contrast AF, a big and expensive lens with a new mount, and a very small lineup. How does this positopn on the market? What's the point of buing this camera over an D-SLR, (the A77 for exmaple)?
Any constructive comments are appreciated.
Many greetings
Michael

Fact is, the APC-C sensor dictates focal length versus angle of view (or crop factor).
http://www.mhohner.de/formulas.php

So unless you choose a smaller sensor size (larger crop), you are stuck with the focal length derived from the sensor. P&S have a crop of 6x or higher. MFT are at 2x, and APS-C at 1.5x, versus FF at 1x.

Or, to say the inverse, P&S cameras reach the same angle of view with a focal length that is 6x shorter than FF, MFT 2x shorter, APS-C 1.5x shorter.

Pancakes are nice, but for APS-C they are somewhat restricted to wide-angle lenses.

Example, the Panny 20mm becomes a 27mm lens on APS-C. Or, compared to the SEL16F28, which is a 16mm lens on APS-C, this 27mm lens would become 10mm 'thicker' in width. Or, it would double the protrusion of the SEL16F28.

We are somewhat dissappointed that both the 30M35 and the CZ 24mm will be larger (towards the 1855 size) and not pancake-like (towards the 16F28 size). So, it is unlikely that we will see many compact lenses, unless Sigma and others find a way. [Note, the Fujifilm X100, with 23mm lens, is 54mm in width - ie. same as NEX with 16mm lens]

To the best of my knowledge, you can make a lens longer than its focal length with special optics, but you cannot make it shorter than its focal length, unless you resort to mirror (tele) lenses, 'collapsible lenses' and sorts.

See the upper right in the first pic - notice that the Minolta 28mm is taller than the Minolta 50mm (adjacent to it). You can also see this in the second pic: the SEL16F28, coupled with the ECU1, (third from left) is almost as tall as the SEL1855 right next to it. Yet this combinations makes for a 12mm focal length!

Lenses can be made smaller- e.g., in the second pic, compare the Fujinon C-mount 35mm f1.7 (second from right) next to the CV Nokton 35mm 1.4 -- but only in diameter, not in length. The Fujinon is also a simple lens - from the front of the lens (slightly inset from rim) to the sensor (center of NEX) is just about 3.5cm, i.e. the 35mm focal length.

As a comparison, the NEX at the right is mounted with the OM 50mm f1.4 lens. This combination is still shorter than the OM camera itself with this lens - albeit only by a few mm. But notice that this length is almost identical to that of the SEL18200, including lens mount and lens cap. In other words, the NEX with the 18-200mm zoom is no larger than a traditional SLR with 50mm mounted.

A 55-200mm zoom, a faster zoom, or the G (high quality) zoom - assuming that they are all 200mm - will all be equally long to the 18-200, they may just vary in diameter.

And in all fairness, for longer focal lengths, the size of the body is less significant, and the features matter more - this is were the smallish NEX looses its compact advantage and dSLR begins to make more sense (viewfinder and PDAF).

Of course, smaller sensor cameras can get the equivalent field of view that the longer focal length lenses provide with a much shorter actual length.

Having said all that, a camerabag with NEX and lenses is still significantly more compact, and lighter, than a similar bag for dSLR cameras. I think that the compactness without compromising IQ will remain the NEX strong point. FWIW, the NEX does come along easier than a dSLR and furthermore, the NEX is far less intimidating than a dSLR when used around people.

I would like to see more dSLR like features on a NEX-7, such as AE/AF lock, ability to trigger external (fill) flash, and so on. The NEX 3/5 have a socket, but no clear follow through on what we can plug in.

  • and in leica tradition (1.3x and 1x crop), it would be nice if the NEX-7 had a larger sensor, e.g. 1.3x crop or larger, for it changes (widens) the lens' angle of view and it makes more sense to keep two different cameras.

I will keep using the smallish NEX over a dSLR, but I am no professional. I see the NEX useable as a P&S replacement , as a rangefinder aternative (without OVF) type of camera and as a dSLR replacement for most dSLR usages.

The fact that it enables use of legacy lenses is also a big plus, imho.

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blue_skies
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Re: Voigtlander Ultron 40mm f2 for FF
In reply to Henry Richardson, May 17, 2011

Henry Richardson wrote:

gfrensen wrote:

To start with, Good High quality, fast lenses are large (for APS sized sensors that is)

Here is the Voigtlander Ultron 40mm f2 pancake for FF SLRs:

http://www.adorama.com/VT402PX.html?utm_term=Other&utm_medium=Shopping%20Site&utm_campaign=Other&utm_source=gbase

I wonder if it was for APS-C and for NEX instead of an SLR if it could be even smaller or maybe the same size?

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that lens is for an SLR mount, ie. it will take a full size adapter (ie. add 25+mm or so). It is 'pancake' for SLR, but it is similar in size to the SEL1855 when mounted on the NEX.

The similar lens for rangefinder cameras is about 30mm long, plus the adapter (M-> NEX) making it more than a 35mm protrusion, again SEL1855-like.

http://www.voigtlaender.de/cms/voigtlaender/voigtlaender_cms.nsf/id/pa_asan6m4dvt.html

See the 35mm mounted on NEX, it is not much shorter than the SEL1855 and much heaver (see my other reply in this thread too).

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seachicken2000
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Re: Quo Vadis Nex?
In reply to blue_skies, May 17, 2011

To the best of my knowledge, you can make a lens longer than its focal length with special optics, but you cannot make it shorter than its focal length, unless you resort to mirror (tele) lenses, 'collapsible lenses' and sorts.

The good news is that I think this not only possible, but necessary in telephoto lens design. I vaguely remember studying this a long time ago.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephoto_lens

If a camera lens were to be constructed from a single lens of 500 mm focal length, then when the lens is focused on an object at infinity, the lens will be 500 mm away from the focal plane where the film or sensor is....

As the focal length of such lenses increases, the physical length of lens becomes inconveniently long. But such lenses are not telephoto lenses, no matter how extreme the focal length. They are simply known as long-focus lenses.[1] A telephoto lens works by having the outermost (i.e. light gathering) element of a much shorter focal length than the equivalent long-focus lens and then incorporating a second set of elements close to the film or sensor plane that extend the cone of light so that it appears to have come from a lens of much greater focal length.

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jazzroy1972
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Re: Quo Vadis Nex?
In reply to seachicken2000, May 17, 2011

And what about some rangefinder pancake lenses as the Industar 50 3.5 ?

The M39 adapter is less than 1cm and the lens around 3cm, so we are in a real pancake situation with a 50mm.

So, it's possible.

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blue_skies
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Re: Quo Vadis Nex?
In reply to jazzroy1972, May 17, 2011

jazzroy1972 wrote:

And what about some rangefinder pancake lenses as the Industar 50 3.5 ?

The M39 adapter is less than 1cm and the lens around 3cm, so we are in a real pancake situation with a 50mm.

So, it's possible.

Maybe, but the flange to sensor distance on the Leica is 29mm

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens_mount ) versus 18mm on the Nex. This means that the adapter is 11mm to correct for the delta, and the lens extends another 3cm. On the Nex, the protrusion then becomes 41mm for a 50mm lens, and it honors the full focal length distance (sensor to end of lens is 58mm).

At 41mm protrusion, it protrudes more than twice as far as the 16F28 pancake, and extends further than e.g. the fujinon 35mm lens.

Again, here is the NEX with the CV Nokton 35mm - this is close to the 1855 size, NOT the pancake size. The Industar will extend similarly, not truly 'pancake like', imho.

here's some comparisons against MFT, with 17mm flange registration and 2x crop:

http://www.43rumors.com/ricehigh-provocation-whats-the-meaning-of-micro-43-now/

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jazzroy1972
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Re: Quo Vadis Nex?
In reply to blue_skies, May 17, 2011

good point, I cannot measure the industar because I'm still waiting it to arrive (anyone's got it already?), but from the pictures it's no more than 3 cm, maybe a bit less.

So, being the Sony 2,3 cm., the industar lens is definitly a pancacke one.

The adapter makes it grow 1 cm, bringing it at a max of 4 cm, still closer to the 16mm than to the 18-55, but placing it in a middle definition.

anyway, the pictures you posted (from seriouscompacts) show that the bigger sensor of sony seems not to influence lens size respect to m43.

18-55 is as long as 14-42, but if we measure the 18-200 is way bigger than the Panny 14-140.. strange...

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blue_skies
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Re: Quo Vadis Nex?
In reply to jazzroy1972, May 17, 2011

jazzroy1972 wrote:

good point, I cannot measure the industar because I'm still waiting it to arrive (anyone's got it already?), but from the pictures it's no more than 3 cm, maybe a bit less.

So, being the Sony 2,3 cm., the industar lens is definitly a pancacke one.

The adapter makes it grow 1 cm, bringing it at a max of 4 cm, still closer to the 16mm than to the 18-55, but placing it in a middle definition.

anyway, the pictures you posted (from seriouscompacts) show that the bigger sensor of sony seems not to influence lens size respect to m43.

18-55 is as long as 14-42, but if we measure the 18-200 is way bigger than the Panny 14-140.. strange...

I think the version you got is specified as 49mm x 33mm.

A good sideview image can be found at the pen-tax forum:

http://www_pentaxforums_com/userreviews/showfull.php?product=604&bigimage=1256911299_resized.jpg
http://www_pentaxforums_com/userreviews/Industar-50-50mm-F3.5-for-Pentax.html

  • replace the underscores by dots.

They are part of a (copycat) group of surprisingly well performing and cheap lenses: Jupiter, Zenitar, Industar, Helios most at 50mm. You will like this lens, a lot.
http://www.novacon.com.br/lenses03a.htm

Yes, we agree on the protrusion dimensions. Yes, it is a small lens, it will extend about half-size of the 1855, and about twice that of the 16F28 pancake - the 2.3cm of the sony pancake includes the mount height; the protrusion is less.

As to the difference in Nex and Panny zoom: 18-55 versus 14-42 differs by only 1cm in length, folded less than 5mm. The longer zoom: 18-200 vs. 14-140 differ by 6cm in focal length. This could yield a difference of 3cm in folded length. (eg. 10cm vs. 7cm). This makes a big difference, this is what you notice.

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GaryW
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Re: 7 new NEX lenses for 2012
In reply to Henry Richardson, May 17, 2011

Henry Richardson wrote:

I just took a look to see what you were talking about:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/

I see the photo of the 7 new NEX lenses for 2012. I am surprised and disappointed that there are no small or pancake lenses.

In the original photos of the Nex lens "roadmap" from Sony, the 30/3.5 looked pretty small. While it doesn't seem as small as the 16mm, it is smaller than the 18-55, and the size on-camera will be less than most of the adapted lenses, as Blue explains below.

As for the latest photo of the 30/3.5 where it looks larger, it looks kinda faked to me, so I'll wait before making final conclusions.

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jazzroy1972
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Re: Quo Vadis Nex?
In reply to blue_skies, May 17, 2011

Yes that's the industar I'm talking about.

When focus is to infinity the lens is around 0.6 cm less thick than in the photo.

I do already own a Jupiter-8 and it's an amazing lens for the price, plus I love the vintage look!

Anyway, sticking to the topic, my point was to show that the sensor size seems not the real limit, but the lens design.

Sony could make 28, 35, 50mm lenses long no more than the jupiter+adapter, instead it seems they are taking at least a couple more centimeters.

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