G3 heralds the end of APS-C DSLRs

Started May 13, 2011 | Discussions
Trevor G
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G3 heralds the end of APS-C DSLRs
May 13, 2011

Apart from some of its snazzy features, like selectable background defocus control, the sheer image quality of the new sensor leaves any APS-C camera in its wake at high ISO and JPEG output.

Bear in mind that I am a former G1 owner, a current Nikon D700 owner and until today was a prospective Olympus E-PL2 owner.

This comparison is nothing short of amazing (click on "Original" at the top of the image):

My jpeg screenshot won't do the G3 justice - just make your own analysis from this page:

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/Panasonicdmcg3/page5.asp

Panasonic cracks the noise barrier - actually the noise and JPEG in-camera processing barrier. What a winner!

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Bizzarrini
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Re: G3 heralds the end of APS-C DSLRs
In reply to Trevor G, May 13, 2011

Did you check out the portrait ROI (top right corner)? Seems quit noisy for some reason...

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Trevor G
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How could they release a JPEG engine like this???
In reply to Trevor G, May 13, 2011

Just look at the noise bubbling - probably a JPEG lossy artefact - in the first gallery shot.

This is only at ISO3200 and 100% view - just imagine what ISO 6400 would be like!

(For those who don't "get it" I think this is also quite amazing...)

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Trevor G
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Re: G3 heralds the end of APS-C DSLRs
In reply to Bizzarrini, May 13, 2011

Bizzarrini wrote:

Did you check out the portrait ROI (top right corner)? Seems quite noisy for some reason...

Not yet.

Imagine how bad it would look on an even noisier APS-C sensor, such as from a Canon 60 or Nikon 7000 or Pentax 5...

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goosel
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Re: G3 heralds the end of APS-C DSLRs
In reply to Trevor G, May 13, 2011

I use both m4/3 and DSLR with APSC

the G3 is certainly good! But you shouldn't get too exuberant.

What you are seeing is differences in Noise reduction algorythems/stratgies. Note on the pic below that the noise reduction of the G3 has resulted in losing color information if it was present in the raw data. Nikon chose a different strategie.

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nick_webster
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Nah,
In reply to Trevor G, May 13, 2011

As a previous owner of a D300 and current G1 owner there are situations where the D300 is so far better than the G1 that it isn't funny. Sports shooting for instance. I will bet you a large sum of money that the G3 will still be inadequate for some types of photography compared with any SLR.

So no the end isn't nigh for APS cameras, though if it makes you happy to think that is the case then far be it from me to disillusion you,

Nick

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Jorginho
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Re: G3 heralds the end of APS-C DSLRs
In reply to Trevor G, May 13, 2011

Seems like the G3 underexposes a little compared to the other ones. Anyway, in the centre we see a lot more details on the white ribbon and in de the face of the statue on th bottle than any of the competition at 3200 ISO.

We need to see RAW performance.

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Trevor G
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Re: G3 heralds the end of APS-C DSLRs
In reply to Jorginho, May 13, 2011

Jorginho wrote:

We need to see RAW performance.

That will be interesting, too. I doubt that the G3 will outperform at RAW level...however in this thread we are just discussing in-camera JPEG performance, which is what the overwhelming majority of buyers use.

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Trevor G
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Re: Nah ...but we are discussing the G3, not the G1
In reply to nick_webster, May 13, 2011

nick_webster wrote:

As a previous owner of a D300 and current G1 owner there are situations where the D300 is so far better than the G1 that it isn't funny. Sports shooting for instance. I will bet you a large sum of money that the G3 will still be inadequate for some types of photography compared with any SLR.

Funny thing about the G1 - I sold mine because it lacked in most areas except size when compared to my APS-C DSLRs.

Compared to my D700 it would be a waste of time for what I now shoot, especially in low light.

But this thread is all about the G3, which is vastly superior in its JPEG output. Enjoy your G1 while you can, but it is now well and truly superceded, JPEG in-camera-wise.

Let's face it, the overwhelming majority of buyers of interchangeable lens cameras still rely on JPEG output.

So no the end isn't nigh for APS cameras, though if it makes you happy to think that is the case then far be it from me to disillusion you,

The end as far as superior noise and detail performance in OOC JPEGs. I think I said that in the original post.

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nick_webster
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Ahh,
In reply to Trevor G, May 13, 2011

So you are saying that because the G3 can produce high iso jpgs that match APS cameras then they are obsolete ? Or just in the ( limited ) area of high ISO jpgs ? In which case your OP's title was a little bit hyperbolic

Nick

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greg57
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Re: G3 heralds the end of APS-C DSLRs
In reply to Trevor G, May 13, 2011

Trevor G wrote:

I doubt that the G3 will outperform at RAW level...however in this thread we are just discussing in-camera JPEG performance, which is what the overwhelming majority of buyers use.

Yeah but... what kind of users are we talking about? Not that I want to discriminate but I mean if you include P&S upgraders or people who just want to take pictures at barbecues and family meals, then yes for sure the overwhelming majority uses ooc jpegs... but are we not, here, in the frame of more "serious" photography... that is, people who, with more or less success, have decided to dedicate themselves to photography, either as a profession, an art or an advanced hobby - and therefore want to make the best out of their pictures? Except for some professionals who exposes all their pictures properly and/or have to produce so much volume that they have no time for postprocessing, I think you'll find that RAW users are quite a number. Are we not talking about an enthusiast camera? Indeed you might be somehow right and this then raises some market positioning issues...

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fransams
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Re: G3 heralds the end of APS-C DSLRs
In reply to Trevor G, May 13, 2011

Trevor G wrote:

This comparison is nothing short of amazing

Panasonic cracks the noise barrier - actually the noise and JPEG in-camera processing barrier. What a winner!

Cheers

Trevor G

How about this, Olympus cracks it in history.

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haydukelives
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Re: G3 heralds the end of APS-C DSLRs
In reply to fransams, May 13, 2011

to me it seems more likely the end of the oly e-pl2

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Trevor G
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Re: G3 heralds the end of APS-C DSLRs
In reply to goosel, May 13, 2011

goosel wrote:

I use both m4/3 and DSLR with APSC

And I now use a Nikon D700 full frame and a Fuji S5 Pro APS-C. That doesn't change the fact - that the G3 in-camera JPEG output is superior to that from "better', bigger-sensored APS-C cameras.

What you are seeing is differences in Noise reduction algorythems/stratgies. Note on the pic below that the noise reduction of the G3 has resulted in losing color information if it was present in the raw data. Nikon chose a different strategy.

And looking at the example you showed, there is more detail with less noise disruption in the G3 version! Have another look...

You can always increase saturation a little, but you cannot get back detail lost with noise smearing.

Panaonic have a winner here! It's what every knowledgeable reviewer has been saying for years about in-camera JPEGS - give us noise if we must have it, rather than detail smearing.

Yet the noise artefacts from the G3 are less than those from the D7000, while showing more detail.

Oh, "JPEGS don't matter" will be the next comment from someone...

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453C
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Re: Ahh,
In reply to nick_webster, May 13, 2011

nick_webster wrote:

So you are saying that because the G3 can produce high iso jpgs that match APS cameras then they are obsolete ? Or just in the ( limited ) area of high ISO jpgs ? In which case your OP's title was a little bit hyperbolic

Agreed.

I don't get the Us vs. Them Gear Warz so often seen here. I'm encouraged by the early images from the G3, but don't think for an instant that the End is Nigh for APS-C. Compare the native m43 lens lineup to APS-C and tell me otherwise.

m43 has a long way to go, and the G3 looks to be a positive step, but let's not get carried away. All it does is invite some Nikon lover to start beating their drum in response, and that gets tedious after the first post.
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fransams
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Re: G3 heralds the end of APS-C DSLRs
In reply to Trevor G, May 13, 2011

Trevor G wrote:

Panaonic have a winner here! It's what every knowledgeable reviewer has been saying for years about in-camera JPEGS - give us noise if we must have it, rather than detail smearing.

Cheers

Trevor G

I don't must have this amount of noise at ISO 800 in 2011.

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Trevor G
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Re: Ahh, - no ahah!
In reply to nick_webster, May 13, 2011

nick_webster wrote:

So you are saying that because the G3 can produce high iso jpgs that match APS cameras then they are obsolete ? Or just in the ( limited ) area of high ISO jpgs ? In which case your OP's title was a little bit hyperbolic

Look again, Nick. They don't match, they exceed!

I don't even OWN a Panasonic or µ4/3 camera any more.

I was about to buy an E-PL2 for movies and such, which my D700 and Fuji cannot do. But the E-PL2 is now buried at 1600ISO by the G3.

What good is Olympus JPEG colour if the details are smeared?

The only real advantages of APS-C DSLRs have been noise and background blurring. I haven't looked for any examples of that, but if they are even half as good as the noise and detail control, Panasonic have done it for the masses (who use JPEG).

Oh, and the availability of many fast, autofocus lenses, which µ4/3 still does not have for some reason.

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amalric
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Re: G3 heralds the end of APS-C DSLRs... Well
In reply to fransams, May 13, 2011

Yes, the PL1 is still better up to 800 and 1600, glad that I kept it.

The G3 should have other important features like ultrafast AF. Goof built in EVF et which will make it spearhead Panny's manager's prediction.

That mirrorless by 2012 will be more of 50% of ILS cameras, in Japan and/or Asia.

No mean achievement, but that's still not the case in the Global market, although C&B dominance will be seriously dented.

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453C
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Re: Ahh, - no ahah!
In reply to Trevor G, May 13, 2011

Trevor G wrote:

nick_webster wrote:

So you are saying that because the G3 can produce high iso jpgs that match APS cameras then they are obsolete ? Or just in the ( limited ) area of high ISO jpgs ? In which case your OP's title was a little bit hyperbolic

Look again, Nick. They don't match, they exceed!

I don't even OWN a Panasonic or µ4/3 camera any more.

I was about to buy an E-PL2 for movies and such, which my D700 and Fuji cannot do. But the E-PL2 is now buried at 1600ISO by the G3.

What good is Olympus JPEG colour if the details are smeared?

The only real advantages of APS-C DSLRs have been noise and background blurring. I haven't looked for any examples of that, but if they are even half as good as the noise and detail control, Panasonic have done it for the masses (who use JPEG).

Oh, and the availability of many fast, autofocus lenses, which µ4/3 still does not have for some reason.

Lenses.
Yes, they do seem to be important.
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Trevor G
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Re: Gear Wars no - technical advances Yes
In reply to 453C, May 13, 2011

453C wrote:

I don't get the Us vs. Them Gear Warz so often seen here. I'm encouraged by the early images from the G3, but don't think for an instant that the End is Nigh for APS-C. Compare the native m43 lens lineup to APS-C and tell me otherwise.

This is the day that all the Gear Warz folk have said can never happen - that µ4/3 could never produce better images than APS-C.

Yet the in-camera JPEGS show just that in those very important, high ISO detail and noise smearing areas.

What a victory for Panasonic! This is where their market lies, in folk who use JPEGS OOC.

m43 has a long way to go, and the G3 looks to be a positive step, but let's not get carried away. All it does is invite some Nikon lover to start beating their drum in response, and that gets tedious after the first post.

I'm a Nikon user. I accept what my eyes show me about in-camera JPEG output.

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