the 60D body is awesome !!

Started Nov 18, 2010 | Discussions
Boissez
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Re: mainly an issue of perception
In reply to T3, Nov 26, 2010

OK just to make sure I follow your reasoning correctly... plastic is superior because:

a) It bends to dissipate shock. (ie. your helmet analogy)
b)It doesn't bend/crack like metal (ie. your lens hood analogy)

I'm sorry but that seems contradictory to me.

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abi170845
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Re: the 60D body is awesome !!
In reply to skanter, Nov 26, 2010

I really liked the 60d too, I tested both 60d and 7d but the price difference wasn't much, I went for the 7d just the fact that the 7d has 3 custom buttons what sold me, fast low light autofocus, bigger viewfinder, great ergonomics and customizable buttons. I'm just waiting for the price of the 60d to go down, I think around u$700 would be good and I think it's just too expensive right now, just like when the 7d first release it was too overpriced(when the 7d was released it was only a couple of hundred bucks to the 5dmk2).

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T3
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Re: mainly an issue of perception
In reply to Boissez, Nov 26, 2010

Boissez wrote:

OK just to make sure I follow your reasoning correctly... plastic is superior because:

a) It bends to dissipate shock. (ie. your helmet analogy)
b)It doesn't bend/crack like metal (ie. your lens hood analogy)

I'm sorry but that seems contradictory to me.

Actually, you have it wrong. In "a", plastic does bend to dissipate shock. But in "b", plastic also bends to dissipate shock. But unlike metal, plastic is able to bounce back. This is a property called resilience. Most metals lack the resilience of plastic. So with the L lens plastic hoods, the plastic hoods dissipate shock without permanently deforming (denting) and without cracking. So there is no contradiction.

It's really about the structural properties of a material at the microscopic or molecular level. Plastics are made of long-chain molecules that repeat themselves over and over (carbon-based polymers). These long-chain molecules make plastics very resilient. The exact composition of the plastic determines its strength, elasticity, weight, etc. In other words, you can customize it to the application or to have the desired properties. But the overall characteristic of these long-chain polymers in plastics is that they can withstand and dissipate a lot of shock energy, and bounce back from it very well (aka. resilience). Metals don't have these long-chain properties. Thus, they aren't as resilient, and they tend to be more brittle. This makes them very stiff, but their stiffness also has its downsides: less ability to dissipate shock, and less ability to yield and bounce back from shock. So in response to an impact, at the molecular level the metal will either permanently deform (ie, dent or bend without bouncing back) or fracture (ie, crack). Or if you made it thick enough to not bend or crack, it could easily be too heavy. That's why having a metal or magnesium lens hood would be a bad idea. Plastic is a far better choice. And these excellent, and customizable, properties that plastics have is the reason why plastics are so widely used in everything from laptops, to car bumpers and other automobile body components, to Canon L lenses, etc.

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dougeryb
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Re: mainly an issue of perception
In reply to T3, Oct 26, 2011

Although the Magnesium-Alloy shell does feel quite reassuring, I can tell everyone from personal experience that the Polycarbonate plastic is VERY strong and durable.

I used to work at an outdoor retailer who dealt with Nalgene brand of Polycarbonate bottles. I've seen Polycarbonate bottles, with up to 32 ounces of liquid, fall from hundreds of feet onto rock outcroppings. Other than the screw on top popping off, the bottles could still hold water, and the top could still be screwed back on.

As a test, we took a forklift (2+ tons) and ran over Plastic (PVC, PET, Polypro, etc), Aluminum, stainless steel, and even stone bottles and containers. Some of the other plastics squished and split open, the Aluminum and Steel were pancaked, stone shattered, although the polycarbonate did get squished a little, it still retained its shape best of all of them, and could still hold water.

Seeing all of this first hand, I have no qualms with any company manufacturing durable products out of Polycarbonates. If there were any drawbacks I would say that it wouldn't dissipate heat as well as metal, and it wouldn't offer the abrasion resistance of metal (if one NEEDED to screw and unscrew items, the polycarbonate would strip.)

Polycarbonates are resilient, absorb shock, not prone to splitting/cracking/denting, offer better temperature insulation (this is a double edged sword though), and can be
molded into more complex shapes while retaining optimum strength.

As other posters have stated, plastics have evolved far beyond the plastics we remember as brittle, weak, and cheap feeling. I personally still like the feeling of mass and weight of a metal body, but if the 5d Mk II changed to Polycarbonate, I would applaud the change!

BTW, I do not work for the plastics industry and I try to use reusable bottles and shopping bags as much as possible

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Michael Edward Rudge
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there is a problem that returns
In reply to padang, Oct 27, 2011

I refer to the rubber grip peeling away, I put it down to the fact that the case is made from oil based compound, and this reacts to the glue over a time, and they have not found a reliable glue to hold the rubber to it , I tried Evostick on mine but it is coming off again, I will try Model Aircraft super glue next
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Dannyboy292
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Re: there is a problem that returns
In reply to Michael Edward Rudge, Oct 27, 2011
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why not just send it to canon to be repaired?.....they offered a free fix for this problem.

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vlab
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Re: the 60D body is awesome !!
In reply to preichert, Oct 27, 2011

I got Mine 60D in May for my 50s B-day tomorrow, and I promissed not to ask for any present now, let see, few days ago I ordered 15-85 to replace 18-55 and compliment 55-250.

From May I pracrticed a lot, went to Aruba, got amaising memory shots.
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qianp2k
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Not again, baseless
In reply to ZAnton, Oct 27, 2011

Who told you D7000 has much better high ISOs?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1019&thread=39666551&page=5

Beaten to death debate. DPR and IR, the most credit review sites don't show D7000 has any significant better high ISOs from 800-6400. Sony sensor a bit of cleaner but Canon sensor is a bit of more details. After NR on raw, they look basically the same.

Can someone show to us how good of D7000 at ISO 6400 to see it actually beat 60D into water? We need concrete photos not empty bobbling words.

Shadow Noise at low ISO (only at 100, 200). Yes Sony 16mp sensor is better in this area about 2-stop, another beaten to death debates in the forum. However if you expose correctly and 60D 63-zone metering is very accurate, you don't need to pull 4-stop extreme from shadow but only 1-2 stops moderately if necessary and only if necessary, then there will be minimum difference between two sensors. If you ever pull 4-stop from shadow and one Nikonian guy demo in several his photos, they don't look good anyway and pretty crappy, look so surreal. I can use Topaz Adjust to achieve similar look and both with the price of more noises in shadow areas after lifting. In short, D7000 wins in the game of shadow pulling at base ISO but no much difference if you take real world photos.

I guess you have seen tons of my photos from 60D. And I very welcome the challenges from D7000, bring up and let's compare!

ZAnton wrote:

Only a few are whining about the plastic body.

Most concerns are about noise and DR which are significantly worse that Nikon D7000, as well as about deleted C1-C2 Modes.

Personally I don't care about plastic body and fps (if fps is anything above 3) at all.

I can eved live with cutted b/w screen, though they have cut quite important RAW/JPEG sign.

But massive noise (in comparison to nikons D90 and especially D7000), noise banding and lower DR - that what I am disappointed about.

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vlab
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Re: Plastic vs steel
In reply to T3, Oct 27, 2011

Any Idea why combat steel helmets were replaced with plastic ones? I don't thing that just a weight consideration took over the protection, or I'm wrong?

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qianp2k
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Re: Plastic vs steel
In reply to vlab, Oct 27, 2011

I want a plastic FF 6D = 1Dx 18mp sensor in 60D like body with articulated LCD with FF OVF and built-in flash, 5fps, 9-cross-type AF and sell $1999 or less

vlab wrote:

Any Idea why combat steel helmets were replaced with plastic ones? I don't thing that just a weight consideration took over the protection, or I'm wrong?

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Hooley
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Re: the 60D body is awesome !!
In reply to padang, Oct 27, 2011

I upgraded to a 60D from a 450D and I love it. It does everything I need it to do and so much more and it fits so much more comfortably in my hands than the 450D. The screen or was it the "idea" of the screen, got a lot of bashing, but I find it a really useful tool for getting different angles without breaking your neck to see the screen, in live view and the quality of it is incredible. I'm a fan of it and I'm glad I bought it. I didn't need the fast frame rate of the 7D, The full frame 5D was above budget and I thought the 50D was probably getting on a bit, so the 60D fits me in many ways.

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qianp2k
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Re: the 60D body is awesome !!
In reply to Hooley, Oct 27, 2011

You can get a used 5D1 (if you mean 5D not 5D2) around $1000, it can generate awesome IQ. Nevertheless 60D is a great camera.

These are 60D at ISO 6400, f/2.8 wide open, 1/30-50, so really pretty dim lights.

after about 3-stop shadow pulling, where is banding?

details still there

check highlights, they don't blow out and still see some details

actually I have lots more high ISO 3200-6400 if you browse into my Zenfolio galleries.

Now to those D7000 fans (or fanboys) from where you draw conclusion that D7000 has much better high ISOs? You're more creditable than DPR/IR labs?

I have tons of 60D photos waiting for D7000 challengers. Please bring up and let's have a healthy competition. I don't understand those with empty talks who spreading wrong statements without substance and backing up with photos. My (and tons of other 60D owners) photos speak themselves.

The Bahama
http://qianp2k.zenfolio.com/p520612114
Entire DisneyWorld parks
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Bronx Zoo
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Acrobatic spectacular
http://qianp2k.zenfolio.com/p79026604

And will have tons more from my NV trip next month, tuning up, LOL

Hooley wrote:

I upgraded to a 60D from a 450D and I love it. It does everything I need it to do and so much more and it fits so much more comfortably in my hands than the 450D. The screen or was it the "idea" of the screen, got a lot of bashing, but I find it a really useful tool for getting different angles without breaking your neck to see the screen, in live view and the quality of it is incredible. I'm a fan of it and I'm glad I bought it. I didn't need the fast frame rate of the 7D, The full frame 5D was above budget and I thought the 50D was probably getting on a bit, so the 60D fits me in many ways.

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springbock
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Re: Plastic vs steel
In reply to vlab, Oct 27, 2011

vlab wrote:

Any Idea why combat steel helmets were replaced with plastic ones? I don't thing that just a weight consideration took over the protection, or I'm wrong?

I don't know about military plastic but I sure wouldn't want MY helmet made out of Canon L plastic. My shoulder bag slipped off of my shoulder and dropped waist height to the ground. Inside was my 70-200 F4 IS attached to my 7D and underneath it was bottle. The camera and body was supported by U shape foam padding. The impact caused the foam to squish a bit thus allowing the base of the lens to come in contact with the bottle. It wasn't as resilient as some say, in fact it was quite brittle.

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Larry MacKinnon
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My beef with the 60D
In reply to Boissez, Oct 28, 2011

I've no issue with plastic on the 60D but what bothers me is the use of the small SD cards instead of the CF cards. I suppose it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me if I was shopping for one but just the same, I don't like carrying around those miniature cards. I feel like they would be too easy to lose.

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archiebald
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Re: My beef with the 60D
In reply to Larry MacKinnon, Oct 28, 2011

Larry MacKinnon wrote:

I've no issue with plastic on the 60D but what bothers me is the use of the small SD cards instead of the CF cards. I suppose it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me if I was shopping for one but just the same, I don't like carrying around those miniature cards. I feel like they would be too easy to lose.

You jest, surely....or are you referring to micro SD cards?

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Larry MacKinnon
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Re: My beef with the 60D
In reply to archiebald, Oct 28, 2011

Like I said, it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, but really prefer the CF cards over SD cards, and I'm not talking about the micro SD cards. But to each their own.

EDIT: BTW, I've handled the 60D just once, but I really liked it's feel.

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Larry MacKinnon
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Re: Plastic vs steel
In reply to vlab, Oct 28, 2011

Can Kevlar, the material in many combat helmets, qualify as a plastic? Just wondering.

vlab wrote:

Any Idea why combat steel helmets were replaced with plastic ones? I don't thing that just a weight consideration took over the protection, or I'm wrong?

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T3
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In reply to Larry MacKinnon, Oct 28, 2011

Larry MacKinnon wrote:

Like I said, it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, but really prefer the CF cards over SD cards, and I'm not talking about the micro SD cards. But to each their own.

EDIT: BTW, I've handled the 60D just once, but I really liked it's feel.

I've owned the 10D, 20D, 40D, and 5D, which all obviously used CF cards. I used to be against SD cards. When I got a 60D, I became an SD card convert. They are easier to carry. I just slip them into my wallet. After all, they are barely thicker than a credit card. So just slip them into where you would slip a credit card. Secure and simple. No need to carry a separate memory card wallet. Some clever people even cut SD-shaped windows in old credit cards to hold their SD cards:

Proporta even makes an aluminum credit card-sized SD card holder that will carry three SD cards in the space of a single credit card:

http://www.amazon.com/Proporta-Aluminium-Memory-Card-Holder/dp/B000W6PT3K

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Proporta-Aluminium-Memory-SIM-Card-Holder-/220866202216#vi-content

And, of course, you can buy SD card holders that will carry a lot more SD cards in a smaller and lighter package than CF cards. You can carry eight SD cards in the space of four CF cards:

http://www.amazon.com/HAKUBA-USA-DMSPSD8-Digital-Storage/dp/B00007E7QU

So basically, anyone concerned about the smaller size of SD cards really should get over it. I certainly did. Now, I greatly prefer the smaller size of SD cards. Lighter, thinner, less weight, easier to carry, no CF pins that could bend, no CF pin holes that could get clogged up. Now, CF cards seem downright gargantuan compared to SD cards. I now carry a 32GB SD card in my wallet that is hardly even noticeable, but is always there just in case I need it.

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T3
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Re: Plastic vs steel
In reply to springbock, Oct 28, 2011

springbock wrote:

vlab wrote:

Any Idea why combat steel helmets were replaced with plastic ones? I don't thing that just a weight consideration took over the protection, or I'm wrong?

I don't know about military plastic but I sure wouldn't want MY helmet made out of Canon L plastic. My shoulder bag slipped off of my shoulder and dropped waist height to the ground. Inside was my 70-200 F4 IS attached to my 7D and underneath it was bottle. The camera and body was supported by U shape foam padding. The impact caused the foam to squish a bit thus allowing the base of the lens to come in contact with the bottle. It wasn't as resilient as some say, in fact it was quite brittle.

But the reality is that magnesium is just as brittle, if not more so! Any impact strong enough to damage plastic will likely do even worse to magnesium.

One thing many people don't realize is that the bottom panel of most of Canon's magnesium DSLR bodies is plastic. This includes all the XXD bodies, 5D bodies, and 7D bodies. If you don't believe me, just turn your 7D over, and tap your finger on the bottom plate of your 7D. And as you can see from this damaged 7D (below) where it had been dropped and the impact was to both the magnesium part of the 7D as well as the plastic bottom plate of the 7D, the plastic part survived but the more brittle and less resilient magnesium panel cracked and broke off:

Plus, it certainly appears that the white plastic that Canon uses for their white lenses is a different plastic than is used in their plastic DSLR bodies. It may even be a different plastic than the black plastic used in their black lenses.

We should also remember that virtually every hotshoe flash body is made of plastic, including all the flagship flashes from Canon, Nikon, Sony, Metz, etc. And clearly, those flashes have no problem holding up, even after being dropped. I have two 550EX's that have been dropped plenty of times over the course of many years, and aside from a few minor scratches, they are as good as the day I bought them.

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vlab
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Re: Plastic vs steel
In reply to Larry MacKinnon, Oct 28, 2011

Not a quality as a plastic, but the plastik quality that replaced steel.
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