ICC profiles, sRGB, Adobe RBG, perpectual........so confused!

Started Oct 27, 2010 | Discussions
brentsp
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ICC profiles, sRGB, Adobe RBG, perpectual........so confused!
Oct 27, 2010

I'm running Win7 with a calibrated (quick gamma) 23" HP 1080p monitor and my printers are Canon MP990 and Canon Pro9000 MkII. For PP I use Light Room 3. I have Capture NX2 and CS5 but rarely use them. Most professionals seem to use a lab, I personally enjoy and like having the control of doing my own prints.

Absolute ultimate goal is to color and contrast match exactly what I see on my monitor. In all honestly I'm pretty close but it could be improved. I think what concerns me is I really don't totally understand the basic foundation of all of this. I have been researching this more and the way I have my profiles set up is all wrong I guess.

Currently I have my monitor set to sRGB, my printer set to NOT color manage and LR3 is set to sRGB monitor profile and also set to relative and not perceptual. With these setting the results are ok. I never use ICC printer profiles for the paper I'm using..........should I? Also my camera is setup to sRGB but I can change it to Adobe RBG and change the others accordingly also....except for my monitor. It doesn't have a Adobe RGB setting just sRGB. Relative vs Perceptual? From my understanding Relative is supposed to be transparent and allow it to print what I see on my screen but I just watched a ICC tutorial on Kodak Professional's site and they say use the ICC paper profiles and use perceptual.

Thats another thing. Not all paper has my particular printer profiles listed.........what do you do then?

Its like a balancing act trying to get all these settings/filters to talk to each other and lined up just right only to get a print close to what I see on my monitor. Any help would be appreciated. thanks!

Aristoc
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Re: ICC profiles, sRGB, Adobe RBG, perpectual........so confused!
In reply to brentsp, Oct 27, 2010

I did some learning on this area a year ago and you MUST download an ICC profile for each paper you use. From the manufacturers web site. You should also use the same manufacturers ink. And you probably want to make sure you are using all adobe RGB or sRGB. One or the other.

As for perceptual or relative...that's something you just have to play around with.

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brentsp
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Re: ICC profiles, sRGB, Adobe RBG, perpectual........so confused!
In reply to Aristoc, Oct 27, 2010

Aristoc wrote:

I did some learning on this area a year ago and you MUST download an ICC profile for each paper you use. From the manufacturers web site. You should also use the same manufacturers ink. And you probably want to make sure you are using all adobe RGB or sRGB. One or the other.

As for perceptual or relative...that's something you just have to play around with.

What if your paper manufacture doesn't have profiles for your printer?

My monitor has a setting for sRGB or 6500K but no Adobe RGB.

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BDW_12
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Re: ICC profiles, sRGB, Adobe RBG, perpectual........so confused!
In reply to brentsp, Oct 27, 2010

You should always use the ICC profiles for the media/printer you are using if available. Different papers/media take the ink differently. Ideally, you should create a new profile for every batch of paper and ink but I don't have the equipment to do this so I use the canned profiles and they work pretty good.

As far as the decision to use perceptual or relative, you need to soft proof in Photoshop. Generally, I use perceptual if the image is withing the gamut of the ICC profile then use relative if there are parts of the image that are not. The out of gamut warnings don't tell you how far those areas are out of gamut so they might be just slightly out.

Personally, I keep the image in the widest gamut possible (prophotorgb) then let PS map to the ICC profile.

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--Bruce

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BDW_12
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Re: ICC profiles, sRGB, Adobe RBG, perpectual........so confused!
In reply to brentsp, Oct 27, 2010

I only use papers that have a profile available for my ink/printer but that is just me. Otherwise, you have to experiment. Another option is to try to find the appropriate profile form a 3rd party or have one made. There are services that do that.

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Aristoc
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Re: ICC profiles, sRGB, Adobe RBG, perpectual........so confused!
In reply to brentsp, Oct 27, 2010

I agree with the last posts.

Also, You said you enjoy controlling your work. It doesn't sound however likey ou have much control at all.

You have to be able to calibrate your monitor. If you also want to be able to continue using your paper that has no profiles associated with it, then you have to make your own.

By the way, you didn't tell us what paper it is you are using?

very curious.

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NewsyL
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the monitor side...
In reply to brentsp, Oct 27, 2010

brentsp wrote:

I'm running Win7 with a calibrated (quick gamma) 23" HP 1080p monitor

What monitor model ? I ask because I doubt your monitor has a gamut that covers much outside the sRGB color space so there would be no point in trying to work in AdobeRGB.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Colorspace.png

.

Currently I have my monitor set to sRGB,

How/where do you have your monitor set to sRGB?

Via the OSD menu of the monitor where you can select a color mode such as Cold, Warm, 6500K, Gaming, Video, sRGB, Custom, User, etc etc ??

Via the Windows Color Management utility where you have assigned the sRGB ICC profile to your monitor?

Or ?

.

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Petruska
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Do yourself a favor....
In reply to brentsp, Oct 27, 2010

stick with SRGB in the camera, monitor and printer until you understand color management and it will make your life easier.

Stick with Canon OEM ink and papers for the same reason until you get comfortable with color management.

Now you need to calibrate your monitor, and not doing that will waste your time trying to match the printer output. Buy the correct model X-rite ColorMunk that calibrates both the monitor and generates custom printer profiles down the road when you want to use different papers and or 3rd party ink.

If you have a calibrated monitor and use the standard Canon PRO9000 printer driver with Canon OEM ink you will have a very close monitor to printout match.

When you reach this goal and are confortable using Photoshop or NX2 then we can help you make the transition into using profiles and color management. I suggest that you start with NX2 as it is easier to use than PS at this point.

Bob P.

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brentsp
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Re: ICC profiles, sRGB, Adobe RBG, perpectual........so confused!
In reply to BDW_12, Oct 27, 2010

BDW_12 wrote:

You should always use the ICC profiles for the media/printer you are using if available. Different papers/media take the ink differently. Ideally, you should create a new profile for every batch of paper and ink but I don't have the equipment to do this so I use the canned profiles and they work pretty good.

As far as the decision to use perceptual or relative, you need to soft proof in Photoshop. Generally, I use perceptual if the image is withing the gamut of the ICC profile then use relative if there are parts of the image that are not. The out of gamut warnings don't tell you how far those areas are out of gamut so they might be just slightly out.

Personally, I keep the image in the widest gamut possible (prophotorgb) then let PS map to the ICC profile.

-- hide signature --

--Bruce

I have CS5 but I don't use it unless I'm doing some major editing. LR3 I don't think has soft proofing that i know of.....in fact I don't even know what soft proofing is.

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brentsp
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Re: ICC profiles, sRGB, Adobe RBG, perpectual........so confused!
In reply to Aristoc, Oct 27, 2010

Aristoc wrote:

I agree with the last posts.

Also, You said you enjoy controlling your work. It doesn't sound however likey ou have much control at all.

You have to be able to calibrate your monitor. If you also want to be able to continue using your paper that has no profiles associated with it, then you have to make your own.

By the way, you didn't tell us what paper it is you are using?

very curious.

I've hopped around to different brands of paper trying to find what I like. HP Premium Plus, Kodak Ultra Premium, Canon Pro Platinum and for A3+ I'm using Ilford Galerie

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brentsp
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Re: the monitor side...
In reply to NewsyL, Oct 27, 2010

NewsyL wrote:

brentsp wrote:

I'm running Win7 with a calibrated (quick gamma) 23" HP 1080p monitor

What monitor model ? I ask because I doubt your monitor has a gamut that covers much outside the sRGB color space so there would be no point in trying to work in AdobeRGB.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Colorspace.pn

Its a inexpensive monitor but better than my laptop by a long shot. I was having major color matching issues using my laptops screen. But its a HP S2331.

Currently I have my monitor set to sRGB,

How/where do you have your monitor set to sRGB?

Via the OSD menu of the monitor where you can select a color mode such as Cold, Warm, 6500K, Gaming, Video, sRGB, Custom, User, etc etc ??

Via the Windows Color Management utility where you have assigned the sRGB ICC profile to your monitor?

Or ?

Via the OSD menu and also the Windows Color management utility both are set to sRGB. I was thinking sRGB is the standard so I have been setting EVERYTHING to sRBG thinking my prints would be very close to what I see on my monitor and consitent. I don't know if thats the right thing to do. I need someone to walk me through it and explain what we are doing and why.......this is driving me nuts.

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Aristoc
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Re: the monitor side...
In reply to brentsp, Oct 27, 2010

You need some colour management tutorial and a single post here is not going to asnwer your questions. Do a search for colour management. Adobe and other sites have lots of very nice straighforward pdf's and tutorials that you need to read and put into practise. It took me a few weeks to begin to understand it. Even now almost a year later, I am still learning so don't expect miracles right away.

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brentsp
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Re: Do yourself a favor....
In reply to Petruska, Oct 27, 2010

Petruska wrote:

stick with SRGB in the camera, monitor and printer until you understand color management and it will make your life easier.

Will do thanks

Stick with Canon OEM ink and papers for the same reason until you get comfortable with color management.

Can't afford OEM ink, I've been using 3rd party from inkfarm.com

Now you need to calibrate your monitor, and not doing that will waste your time trying to match the printer output. Buy the correct model X-rite ColorMunk that calibrates both the monitor and generates custom printer profiles down the road when you want to use different papers and or 3rd party ink.

Quickgamma monitoring won't do huh? I'm so tired of having to buy this and that and was hoping to get away with not having to buy a calibration software that I'm only going to use maybe once a year if that. Wish I could just borrow someones he,he.

3rd party ink requires separate ICC profiles too? I can see why people uses labs now.

If you have a calibrated monitor and use the standard Canon PRO9000 printer driver with Canon OEM ink you will have a very close monitor to printout match.

When you reach this goal and are comfortable using Photoshop or NX2 then we can help you make the transition into using profiles and color management. I suggest that you start with NX2 as it is easier to use than PS at this point.

I use LR3 99% of the time. I like NX2 for RAW conversion and maybe one photo here and there but batch processing a wedding session is nightmare plus I feel I can be more creative with LR3. CS5 I'm still learning.....its my first full blown photoshop program I've ever owned.

.

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brentsp
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Re: the monitor side...
In reply to Aristoc, Oct 27, 2010

Aristoc wrote:

You need some colour management tutorial and a single post here is not going to asnwer your questions. Do a search for colour management. Adobe and other sites have lots of very nice straighforward pdf's and tutorials that you need to read and put into practise. It took me a few weeks to begin to understand it. Even now almost a year later, I am still learning so don't expect miracles right away.

Your exactly right Aristoc and I was afraid this would be one of the answers I'd be getting but was hoping the light bulb would turn on for me.

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Petruska
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You need a calibrated monitor!!!
In reply to brentsp, Oct 27, 2010

There is no way that you are going to have matching monitor to prints without a calibrated monitor. You may even be challenged to get close with an inexpensive monitor and calibration but you can get close. Ever wonder why they sell monitors for $2K+?

I think you have set up everything with sRGB correctly. Your prints on Canon paper with OEM ink and allowing the application to let the printer manage the colors should give you a fine print. Download a color chart test print from the web and just print it without saying that the monitor doesn't look right. The printer will print that test print correctly if you choose the standard setting in the Canon PRO9000 print driver. Then if you don't want to spend the money for a calibration system, play with the "monitor's "brightness, and color controls to match the print, that's the poor man's calibration attempt but works fairly well.

Also remember that a print view in different lighting (daylight, tungsten, fluorescent, halogen, xenon, sodium, LED) is going look different, take a print to w window and then to a room lamp, to see the difference. Most calibration systems calibrate the monitor to match a print viewed under daylight.

One main question, are you using Windows or MAC OS?

Bob P.

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brentsp
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Re: You need a calibrated monitor!!!
In reply to Petruska, Oct 27, 2010

Petruska wrote:

One main question, are you using Windows or MAC OS?

Bob P.

I only dream of owning a MAC one day

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Petruska
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Re: Do yourself a favor....
In reply to brentsp, Oct 27, 2010

I think that you are going in the right direction. LR3 has color management for printing.

What operating system are you using , Windows or MAC?

We can walk you through the setup and steps.

Are you buying inkfarm ink for both printers, bulk ink and refilling your own, or in cartridges?

Yes this hobby is expensive and you are correct that lab prints could be cheaper, but then you still need to claibrate your monitor, download their custom print profiles to match your monitor to their prints so you still need to by at least the ColorMunki, etc.

We all went through what you are going through! We can help, so relax and when you see how it all works you will say that's quite easy.....

Bob P.

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Petruska
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Not really.....
In reply to brentsp, Oct 27, 2010

read about the latest MAC OS and the problems with printing especially Epsons.

Bob P.

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brentsp
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Re: Do yourself a favor....
In reply to Petruska, Oct 27, 2010

Petruska wrote:

I think that you are going in the right direction. LR3 has color management for printing.

What operating system are you using , Windows or MAC?

Windows 7

We can walk you through the setup and steps.

This would be awesome and I would greatly appreciate it!

Are you buying inkfarm ink for both printers, bulk ink and refilling your own, or in cartridges?

I'm buying 3rd party cartridges. You'll probably roll your eyes in disbelief when you read what I'm about to type. But these printers are fairly new and I started with the OEM ink that came with the printers and have replaced the cartridges with inkfarms as they go empty. So right now in both printers there is a mix of OEM and 3rd Party......how do you make a profile for that?....ha,ha joking of course.

Yes this hobby is expensive and you are correct that lab prints could be cheaper, but then you still need to calibrate your monitor, download their custom print profiles to match your monitor to their prints so you still need to by at least the ColorMunki, etc.

Colormunki is almost $500 how about he $150 X-rite one-eye?

We all went through what you are going through! We can help, so relax and when you see how it all works you will say that's quite easy.....

Thanks! The biggest improvement so far has been purchasing that HP monitor. No its not a $2000 Adobe monitor but wow it so improve my color matching by 10 fold just with that single purchase. I tried to calibrate my laptop screen and never could get it to match the printers output. The external monitor was the ticket.

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Andreas Helke
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ICC rendering intent
In reply to brentsp, Oct 27, 2010

If all colors are inside the gamut of your printer all rendering intents produce the same colors. The differences appear when you have out of gamut colors.

With perceptive rendering all colors are changed to preserve the perceived relationship between all colors as well as possible. I think this is the most sensible choice for home printing.

Absolute colorimetric prints all in gamut colors as they are and remaps out of gamut colors to colors your printer can actually produce. Depending on the image and your printers capabilities this will work ok or produce a mess.

Relative colorimetric is a compromise between the two approaches above.

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