1080p GF13 MJPEG is not 1080p - Proof inside

Started Jul 6, 2010 | Discussions
mpgxsvcd
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1080p GF13 MJPEG is not 1080p - Proof inside
Jul 6, 2010

I have included several images below that show that the 1080p MJPEG is not any better than the scaled high bit rate 720p MJPEG on the GF1. In fact the 1080p MJPEG doesn't look as good as the high quality still picture scaled down to 720p and back up to 1080p.

All of the MJPEG images are the first frame from the MJPEG videos. All of the still images are JPEG images taken straight out of the camera.

The 1080p image straight out of the camera has much more resolution than the 1080p MJPEG image shows.

I have also uploaded a sample video to youtube and vimeo that shows how the true 1080p image looks much better than the 1080 MJPEG images.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB2tgB4amP4

http://vimeo.com/13135705

1080

1080p Still Image

1080p High Bit Rate MJPEG

720p MJPEG Scaled to 1080p

720p High Bit Rate MJPEG

Still Image scaled to 720p and back to 1080p

1080p Low Bit Rate MJPEG(Slightly Stable)

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Everdog
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Re: 1080p GF13 MJPEG is not 1080p - Proof inside
In reply to mpgxsvcd, Jul 6, 2010

Isn't this old news? I know read a thread on dvxuser a while ago.

AVCHD though is 1080p.

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pdmclaren
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Re: 1080p GF13 MJPEG is not 1080p - Proof inside
In reply to Everdog, Jul 6, 2010

Has this not been the consensus from the beginning?

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VisualFX
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Consumer lenses = limited resolving power
In reply to mpgxsvcd, Jul 6, 2010

The lenses on consumer camcorders and cameras can resolve only so much. You are not going to get the full 720p, and especially not 1080p lines. All you are doing, is interpolating the lines and recording the scaled up image in 1080p. Isn't this known by most folks now on this forum?

Check out this review on Camcorderinfo.com and scroll down to "Motion & Sharpness". They have a chart that shows the horizontal and vertical resolution of the Sony NEX, E-PL1, GF1, and NX10. The NEX claims 1080p(1920x1080), but actual resolving power is (700x650). More than the E-PL1 at (575x575), but none of these cameras resolve the full 720p, and especially not 1080p (1920x1080). You will never get the resolution you see on broadcast TV and Blu-Ray discs. You need professional gear with professional lenses to capture at full spec and beyond.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-NEX-5-DSLR-Camera-Review-37807.htm

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Angular Mo
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Re: 1080p GF13 MJPEG is not 1080p - Proof inside
In reply to mpgxsvcd, Jul 6, 2010

mpgxsvcd ,
which version of the tester 13 hackware are you using for the GF1 ?

I am still using 3.37d, I read they are up to 3.40d (not sure if it works on GF1, though)

which thread has the link on divx ?

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mpgxsvcd
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Re: 1080p GF13 MJPEG is not 1080p - Proof inside
In reply to Angular Mo, Jul 7, 2010

3.40d is the current Ptool version.

This is the best thread for hacked firmware settings.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=215511

Yes most people thought that the GF1 was upscaling 720p. However, no one had actually gone through the trouble to show it. That has been done now.

Angular Mo wrote:

mpgxsvcd ,
which version of the tester 13 hackware are you using for the GF1 ?

I am still using 3.37d, I read they are up to 3.40d (not sure if it works on GF1, though)

which thread has the link on divx ?

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mpgxsvcd
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Re: Consumer lenses = limited resolving power
In reply to VisualFX, Jul 7, 2010

Unfortunately, camcorderinfo does their sharpness test by outputting 1080i from the cameras over HDMI. That works for just about every camcorder and the GH1 because they record in 1080i or in a 1080i container. For all other digital hybrid cameras that record native progressive video you will degrade the quality and resolution by outputting the video as 1080i.

The deinterlacing process is always destructive for 720p @ 29.97 FPS, 720p @ 59.94 FPS, and 1080p @ 59.94 FPS video. It does not have to be destructive for 1080i @ 59.94 Fields per second and 1080p @ 24 FPS video.

The lenses that can be used with a GH1 are far beyond what would typically be used with professional video gear. The sensor in the GH1 is also much larger than what is in typical video gear.

The GH1 is capable of producing the highest quality video you have probably ever seen. It just needs the right lenses and the right firmware settings.

VisualFX wrote:

The lenses on consumer camcorders and cameras can resolve only so much. You are not going to get the full 720p, and especially not 1080p lines. All you are doing, is interpolating the lines and recording the scaled up image in 1080p. Isn't this known by most folks now on this forum?

Check out this review on Camcorderinfo.com and scroll down to "Motion & Sharpness". They have a chart that shows the horizontal and vertical resolution of the Sony NEX, E-PL1, GF1, and NX10. The NEX claims 1080p(1920x1080), but actual resolving power is (700x650). More than the E-PL1 at (575x575), but none of these cameras resolve the full 720p, and especially not 1080p (1920x1080). You will never get the resolution you see on broadcast TV and Blu-Ray discs. You need professional gear with professional lenses to capture at full spec and beyond.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-NEX-5-DSLR-Camera-Review-37807.htm

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Angular Mo
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Re: 1080p GF13 MJPEG is not 1080p - Proof inside
In reply to mpgxsvcd, Jul 7, 2010

mpgxsvcd wrote:

3.40d is the current Ptool version.

This is the best thread for hacked firmware settings.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=215511

Thank you for the link, I found 3.40d tool.

Your settings, below crashed my Transcend 16GB Class 10 card, which had been working.

Q1=400, T1 = 4
Q2=300, T2 = 4
Q3=250, T3 = 4
Q4=188, T3 = 4

I may have to try your other settings;

Q1=150, T1 = 86
Q2=130, T2 = 56
Q3=115, T3 = 26
Q4=100, T3 = 4

as I have noticed that the Transcend 16GB Class 10 card works better for me with lower Q settings (I gave up on my SanDisk Class 10 card)

What do the letters on the bottom row define? Someone in a thread I started on dpr mentioned these settings to me...

Yes most people thought that the GF1 was upscaling 720p. However, no one had actually gone through the trouble to show it. That has been done now.

Angular Mo wrote:

mpgxsvcd ,
which version of the tester 13 hackware are you using for the GF1 ?

I am still using 3.37d, I read they are up to 3.40d (not sure if it works on GF1, though)

which thread has the link on divx ?

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compositor20
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Re: 1080p GF13 MJPEG is not 1080p - Proof inside
In reply to Angular Mo, Jul 7, 2010

transitions look smoother in the 1080p image and the number 4 in the horizontal lines near the center has closer to number 5 lines than the 720p and the center round/circular shape looks to have less rainbow moirés in 1080p mode than the upscalled 720p to 1080p and it looks overall to have the same level of detail as the 1080p but the out of camera picture at 1080p looks to have cleaner transitions and smoother in fine detail so it may have a better upscale then the one that the average guy would do

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Everdog
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Re: Consumer lenses = limited resolving power
In reply to VisualFX, Jul 7, 2010

This made me laugh.

Check out some of the threads about 720p vs 1080p for the GH1. You will see that the GH1 can not only resolve 1080p, but does it sharply. On top of that with because of the high bit rate, they are getting very little compression during fast motion.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=213935

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mpgxsvcd
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The GH1 is one of the best video cameras you can buy
In reply to Everdog, Jul 7, 2010

Yea the GH13 is a beast of a video camera right now. I really wish I had bought it instead of the GF1 last year. I do so much video now that I would love to have true 1080p.

The only thing stopping me from buying a GH1 body right now is that I know the GH2 will be announced at the end of the month. If that camera has some major improvements like a global electronic shutter then I will wait for it. If not then a $600-$700 GH1 body is just too tempting.

I would love to see the test I did above done with a GH1. I wonder if the 1080p AVC-HD mode comes close to the out of camera still JPG?

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Everdog
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Re: The GH1 is one of the best video cameras you can buy
In reply to mpgxsvcd, Jul 7, 2010

There is a professional on dvxuser who summed the GH13 up very well...

" the raw image looks SO freaking clear and sharp its mind blowing. I have it playing full screen on my Dell 30inch and its jaw droppingly sharp. Like real life. "
(by "raw" he was meaning OoC with no PP)

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mpgxsvcd
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Re: The GH1 is one of the best video cameras you can buy
In reply to Everdog, Jul 7, 2010

If anyone knows of higher quality footage than the one in the link below I would love to see it.

http://vimeo.com/12606679

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mpgxsvcd
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Re: The GH1 is one of the best video cameras you can buy
In reply to mpgxsvcd, Jul 7, 2010

Here is a video showing that you can improve the 1080p MJPEG video slightly by sharpening in post processing. However, it still does not come close to the true 1080p video.

http://vimeo.com/13150818

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VisualFX
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Re: The GH1 is one of the best video cameras you can buy
In reply to mpgxsvcd, Jul 9, 2010

mpgxsvcd wrote:

If anyone knows of higher quality footage than the one in the link below I would love to see it.

http://vimeo.com/12606679

If that is 1080p, it sure looks soft. You want to see higher quality? Buy the Spears & Munsil Blu-ray calibration disc. The video montage on it was shot with a RED One camera at 4K resolution, and scaled down for blu-ray to 1920x1080p. In fact, any BR disc has video that is sharper. The GH1 output that I see here still looks very soft to me.

Lots of 1080p demonstration trailers here that are sharper.
http://www.demo-world.eu/trailers/high-definition-trailers.php

Vimeo doesn't show anywhere near the full 32mbit capture. I'm not sure why people continue to upload these stupid video tests to video sharing websites, when the playback bitrate is very constrained. Vimeo only plays back the "1080p" at about 5mb. No wonder why this video only shows static scenes.

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m1rk0
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Re: The GH1 is one of the best video cameras you can buy
In reply to VisualFX, Jul 9, 2010

Sorry, if that information is available elsewhere, but I find all this a bit confusing and have lost track of all the information on the hacked firmware...

Everdog wrote:

Isn't this old news? I know read a thread on dvxuser a while ago.

AVCHD though is 1080p.

I've had a look at the tool now and cannot find any option to change the size of the AVCHD video. Does that mean there is no real 1080p/i on the GF1 at all? Or is there a way to change AVCHD to full HD?

Mirko

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mpgxsvcd
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Re: The GH1 is one of the best video cameras you can buy
In reply to m1rk0, Jul 9, 2010

That is correct. Vitaliy(The guy who created Ptool) has stated that the sensor in the GF1 cannot produce true 1080p(1920x1080). It can resize MJPEG 720p to any frame size you want. However, it is just scaled 720p.

If you want 1080p in m4/3s right now your only option as of today is the GH1.

m1rk0 wrote:

Sorry, if that information is available elsewhere, but I find all this a bit confusing and have lost track of all the information on the hacked firmware...

Everdog wrote:

Isn't this old news? I know read a thread on dvxuser a while ago.

AVCHD though is 1080p.

I've had a look at the tool now and cannot find any option to change the size of the AVCHD video. Does that mean there is no real 1080p/i on the GF1 at all? Or is there a way to change AVCHD to full HD?

Mirko

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mpgxsvcd
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Re: The GH1 is one of the best video cameras you can buy
In reply to VisualFX, Jul 9, 2010

We upload them to Vimeo because then you can download the orginal file that in some cases is in excess of 100 mb/sec(twice that of Blu-ray).

True about the Red One though. I have a rock climbing Blu-ray that was shot with a Red One and it is probably the highest quality Blu-ray ever made.

That being said I bet GH13 could shoot pretty close to that quality for 1/20 the price.

VisualFX wrote:

mpgxsvcd wrote:

If anyone knows of higher quality footage than the one in the link below I would love to see it.

http://vimeo.com/12606679

If that is 1080p, it sure looks soft. You want to see higher quality? Buy the Spears & Munsil Blu-ray calibration disc. The video montage on it was shot with a RED One camera at 4K resolution, and scaled down for blu-ray to 1920x1080p. In fact, any BR disc has video that is sharper. The GH1 output that I see here still looks very soft to me.

Lots of 1080p demonstration trailers here that are sharper.
http://www.demo-world.eu/trailers/high-definition-trailers.php

Vimeo doesn't show anywhere near the full 32mbit capture. I'm not sure why people continue to upload these stupid video tests to video sharing websites, when the playback bitrate is very constrained. Vimeo only plays back the "1080p" at about 5mb. No wonder why this video only shows static scenes.

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