Sharpness Lost, RAW --> JPEG – Why?

Started Mar 7, 2010 | Discussions
yovwmon
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Sharpness Lost, RAW --> JPEG – Why?
Mar 7, 2010

I'm shooting in RAW then using DPP to correct the images. While processing I correct sharpness and damn the pictures look great, but once I convert & save to jpeg's the high quality & sharpness is completely gone. The color, WB, contrast, and everything else modified in DPP remains, it’s just the sharpness that seems to disappear. I’m shooting in RAW+jpeg, when comparing my touched-up & converted RAW with the original jpeg the sharpness appears to be exactly the same. Images converted from RAW using DPP are just not sharp. Any Ideas?

RAW Example:

JPEG Example:

Yaamon
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Re: Sharpness Lost, RAW --> JPEG – Why?
In reply to yovwmon, Mar 7, 2010

Possible a few reasons.

I noticed that you used windows viewer to view the jpeg, try using dpp and see if that improves?

On conversion to jpeg did you resize the photo?

Normally when you resize you tend to lose detail and have to resharpen on final size output rather than sharpen the original photo size.

Nice photo of the audi.
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Olga Johnson
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Re: Sharpness Lost, RAW --> JPEG – Why?
In reply to yovwmon, Mar 7, 2010

The same thing happens to me. This was discussed a few months ago but no solution was suggested.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1031&message=34102973
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JTAndrews
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Does Windows Viewer degrade images?
In reply to Yaamon, Mar 7, 2010

Yaamon wrote:

I noticed that you used windows viewer to view the jpeg, try using dpp and see if that improves?

I've been struggling with soft images for quite awhile, and I figured my problem stemmed from not using RAW to its fullest extent. I'm shooting RAW + JPeg, but I don't really procees the RAW images as I haven't developed a PP work flow.

I always view all JPEGS with Windows Viewer as I am shuffling files on the PC. Perhpas this contributes to my frustration?

Thanks.
JT

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comeon
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Re: Sharpness Lost, RAW --> JPEG – Why?
In reply to Olga Johnson, Mar 7, 2010

Check the user settings of DPP .. that program ships with a defaul NR of 2... reset it to 0 and see how much improvement you have .. not to mention that the actual files would make for better material to comment on with exif intact ..instead of screen shots

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Olga Johnson
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Not a NR problem
In reply to comeon, Mar 7, 2010

The problem is simple and has nothing to do with NR. When I sharpen a raw file, and either convert and save or transfer to Photoshop, the sharpness is not saved in the resulting jpg or tiff. You can google the issue and see that it's real to many users.

It is as if DPP is instructed to not save sharpness when converting. Most raw converters make this optional but DPP does it by default, at least on my system.

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Drewbie
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Re: Not a NR problem
In reply to Olga Johnson, Mar 7, 2010

Olga

I shoot in RAW with my 1000D and download from the camera using DDP and view the images there. But I then open them up using PS Elements 7 and process the RAW files using that software. No issues arise wrt sharpness when/if I convert them to JPeg later.

Wouldn't you eliviate this problem by opening your RAW files in PS, or am I missing something?

Olga Johnson wrote:

The problem is simple and has nothing to do with NR. When I sharpen a raw file, and either convert and save or transfer to Photoshop, the sharpness is not saved in the resulting jpg or tiff. You can google the issue and see that it's real to many users.

It is as if DPP is instructed to not save sharpness when converting. Most raw converters make this optional but DPP does it by default, at least on my system.

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Olga Johnson
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Re: Not a NR problem
In reply to Drewbie, Mar 7, 2010

Drewbie wrote:

Olga

I shoot in RAW with my 1000D and download from the camera using DDP and view the images there. But I then open them up using PS Elements 7 and process the RAW files using that software. No issues arise wrt sharpness when/if I convert them to JPeg later.

Wouldn't you eliviate this problem by opening your RAW files in PS, or am I missing something?

Using other raw converters is one way for an individual to avoid the problem but it does not mean that DPP should be doing what it's doing. It still doesn't negate the fact that you cannot convert raw in DPP, apply sharpening, and expect to see that same sharpening in any other image editor.

It becomes an even bigger problem when DPP is the only raw converter that works with your images, such as with the 550D since it's such a new camera.

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oldtool
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Re: Not a NR problem
In reply to Olga Johnson, Mar 7, 2010

Olga, are you resizing when you convert the photos?

I just took a photo, cropped it and sharpened it and then converted to tiff and jpg with no loss when viewed in Zoombrowser. However the tiff and jpg copies I resized seemed to lose the sharpness. It only seemed to happen when I resized possably because the photo was so compressed?

I like DPP for color correction but do not do any sharpening till I open it in PS8
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Peter 13
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Do not use the Windows Viewer.
In reply to yovwmon, Mar 7, 2010

Do not use the Windows Viewer.

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Olga Johnson
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Re: Not a NR problem
In reply to oldtool, Mar 7, 2010

oldtool wrote:

Olga, are you resizing when you convert the photos?

Jim,

No, I'm not. Have you tried it without resizing? I even took an image and over sharpened it, just for testing purposes. It ends up without the sharpening.

It shouldn't lose sharpening even if you do resize.

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Peter 13
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Re: Not a NR problem
In reply to Olga Johnson, Mar 7, 2010

Maybe you are talking about something different: Save as RAW. If you overshrpen, convert and save as JPEG in DPP, you get an oversharpened JPEG as you should.

Olga Johnson wrote:

oldtool wrote:

Olga, are you resizing when you convert the photos?

Jim,

No, I'm not. Have you tried it without resizing? I even took an image and over sharpened it, just for testing purposes. It ends up without the sharpening.

It shouldn't lose sharpening even if you do resize.

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imqqmi
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Re: Sharpness Lost, RAW --> JPEG – Why?
In reply to yovwmon, Mar 7, 2010

It's a long standing issue with DPP I think. It applies sharpening on the downsized preview image instead of the whole image which can be much sharper than the full size output that's viewed downsized to screen size.

LR is much more sensible, you need to zoom in to 100% to see the effects of sharpening previewed.

If you want something to look really sharp on screen, you need to downsize it to screen resolution ie 1280x1024, 1920x1200 etc. then sharpen it. If any of the windows viewers has to downsize it, it makes a real mess of it (and many other viewers as well).

Who wants to use DPP sharpening anyway? It's the worst possible type of sharpening that I've seen. It uses USM with settings similar to 100, 1, 4 where the last '4' value is a threshold. If the pixel in question is more than 4 shades different than its neighbors it will be sharpened, otherwise it's left alone. This can create a speckled effect since the pixels that do get sharpened with a higher degree will be a lot different than the pixels surrounding it.

yovwmon wrote:

I'm shooting in RAW then using DPP to correct the images. While processing I correct sharpness and damn the pictures look great, but once I convert & save to jpeg's the high quality & sharpness is completely gone. The color, WB, contrast, and everything else modified in DPP remains, it’s just the sharpness that seems to disappear. I’m shooting in RAW+jpeg, when comparing my touched-up & converted RAW with the original jpeg the sharpness appears to be exactly the same. Images converted from RAW using DPP are just not sharp. Any Ideas?

RAW Example:

JPEG Example:

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Yaamon
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Large sample photo from 30" monitor no difference in detail
In reply to imqqmi, Mar 7, 2010

I also use DPP to convert my raw photos to jpeg and save them as quality 8.

I then do my adjustment in photoshop and as a last step sharpen after I resize the final image.

It's normal to lose the detail once you resize to a smaller image and that is why you should then sharpen then and not in DPP. I usually convert the image from raw with the default sharpening at 3.

I just did a small test to confirm there is no loss in detail. I open a image in DPP and pushed sharpening to 7 and then converted to jpeg.

I open both images in DPP as you can see there is no real loss in detail it self.

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Olga Johnson
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Re: Not a NR problem
In reply to Peter 13, Mar 7, 2010

Peter 13 wrote:

Maybe you are talking about something different: Save as RAW. If you overshrpen, convert and save as JPEG in DPP, you get an oversharpened JPEG as you should.

But I do not get the oversharpened JPG that I should. That's the problem that I and many others have.

It doesn't matter if I save as raw, convert and save as jpg, or transfer to Photoshop. Sharpness is ignored. I cannot state it any simpler than that.

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imqqmi
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Re: Large sample photo from 30" monitor no difference in detail
In reply to Yaamon, Mar 7, 2010

I open both images in DPP as you can see there is no real loss in detail it self.

No, but sharpening is applied twice on the left image, hence the interference is stronger on the highest building for example. So sharpening is applied upon saving, it just doesn't look the same in DPP compared to a different viewer.

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Olga Johnson
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That's not what we're talking about
In reply to Yaamon, Mar 7, 2010

You are using DPP for both samples. You cannot see the problem that I'm describing that way. Problem comes in when you either send to Photoshop, or convert and save.

Here's an example. Left side is the image in DPP (purposely oversharpened for this discussion), right side is the "send to Photoshop" version as received by Photoshop. The same soft version comes out when I convert and save.

http://yiayia.zenfolio.com/img/v4/p1026379119-6.jpg
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Olga Johnson
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Re: Sharpness Lost, RAW --> JPEG – Why?
In reply to imqqmi, Mar 7, 2010

imqqmi wrote:

It's a long standing issue with DPP I think. It applies sharpening on the downsized preview image instead of the whole image which can be much sharper than the full size output that's viewed downsized to screen size.

Size does not matter.

LR is much more sensible, you need to zoom in to 100% to see the effects of sharpening previewed.

We are not talking about quality or DPP v. other converters. We are simply talking about the fact that sharpening is simply absent when DPP either converts and saves, or send to Photoshop.

Who wants to use DPP sharpening anyway?

Whether we want to use DPP for sharpening or not is does not excuse DPP from what it does or does not do. Canon provides a raw converter. It should at least perform what we wish it to perform.

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Yaamon
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Re: That's not what we're talking about
In reply to Olga Johnson, Mar 7, 2010

I can't view your example.

Maybe I really don't understand what the discussion is about but if I convert any full resolution raw images to jpeg or tiff and open in photoshop there is no loss in detail.

Once I resize the image in photoshop, I lose detail and then have to resharpen the image.

Is this what I understand you are wondering Olga?
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Olga Johnson
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Sorry....
In reply to Yaamon, Mar 7, 2010

Yaamon wrote:

I can't view your example.

Please try again.
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