Why is D90 betten then D300s at DxOMark Sensor test?

Started Jan 4, 2010 | Discussions
sorenbothdk
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Why is D90 betten then D300s at DxOMark Sensor test?
Jan 4, 2010

Hi

I wonder why Nikon D90 got a better rating (72.6) then Nikon D300s (69.8) at the http://www.dxomark.com/

Nikon D300s is newer and more expensive.

Can any one explain that?

Best regards from Denmark...
Søren

SuisseNikon
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Re: Why is D90 betten then D300s at DxOMark Sensor test?
In reply to sorenbothdk, Jan 4, 2010

It's a sick conspiracy! Don't believe the hype! lol... Who cares what they think....

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RomeoD
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Re: Why is D90 betten then D300s at DxOMark Sensor test?
In reply to sorenbothdk, Jan 4, 2010

The differences are negligible... to the human eye. They are pretty much identical. Now that I have both, I can say that the metering and auto WB is better with the D300s as far as my testing thus far had shown me.

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jfriend00
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Re: Why is D90 betten then D300s at DxOMark Sensor test?
In reply to sorenbothdk, Jan 4, 2010

You're talking about a 1.1% difference in the rating which is likely smaller than the accuracy of the measurement. The cameras have the same sensor and thus give pretty much the same noise and thus have basically the same noise rating from DxO.

Where the two cameras differ a lot is in the speed and accuracy of auto-focus for moving targets and in low light and in frames per second. If you don't need fast fps or really good AF for action (like sports), then get the D90. If action sports is important to you, then get the D300s.
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olyflyer
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Does it matter?
In reply to sorenbothdk, Jan 4, 2010

My D300s works just fine, never the less.
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oblongk
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Re: Why is D90 betten then D300s at DxOMark Sensor test?
In reply to sorenbothdk, Jan 4, 2010

Try comparing the D5000, D90, and D300s on DXOMark ... The D300s comes in last!

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Image-Quality-Database/Compare-cameras/

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krikman
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Re: Why is D90 betten then D300s at DxOMark Sensor test?
In reply to sorenbothdk, Jan 4, 2010

Because D90 have some 'tweaks' to punch the color values from sensor of D90.

It costs more saturation and more color errors. That not acceptable for 'pro' D300-D300s.

Another is more smooth and less acute picture due to weaker moire filter before the sensor, i.e. less resolution and less microcontrast in D90. That masks much of noise in sensor tests.

Just look at non linear curves on DXOmark for D90

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cluna
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Re: Why is D90 betten then D300s at DxOMark Sensor test?
In reply to krikman, Jan 5, 2010

Im curious which settings they used for raw on the 300s vs D90. Since the D300s has more raw tweaking ability, (compressed,uncompressed,compressed lossy, 14 or 12 bit, high iso noise.....) and the 90 has less, it would seem that we should be able to mimic the settings. Active D levels too
Anyone studied it more? I have been curious, but not devoted to it

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DStan
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In reply to sorenbothdk, Jan 5, 2010

If you've ever used DxO's rotten RAW conversion software, you wouldn't take this test seriously.
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Osvaldo Cristo
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Re: Why is D90 betten then D300s at DxOMark Sensor test?
In reply to sorenbothdk, Jan 5, 2010

sorenbothdk wrote:

I wonder why Nikon D90 got a better rating (72.6) then Nikon D300s (69.8) at the http://www.dxomark.com/

Nikon D300s is newer and more expensive.

Can any one explain that?

Given two generic material or imaterial object T1 and T2, always is possible to create a comparisson criterion C where T1 is better than T2 under C.

It is not difficult to demonstrate the theorem above.

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olyflyer
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Re: Why is D90 betten then D300s at DxOMark Sensor test?
In reply to cluna, Jan 5, 2010

cluna wrote:

Im curious which settings they used for raw on the 300s vs D90. Since the D300s has more raw tweaking ability, (compressed,uncompressed,compressed lossy, 14 or 12 bit, high iso noise.....) and the 90 has less, it would seem that we should be able to mimic the settings. Active D levels too
Anyone studied it more? I have been curious, but not devoted to it

They are different cameras, as simple as that. Different electronics, different options, different processing, different AF and different exposure. The D300s is simply a different camera made by the same manufacturer.
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joseph costa
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Re: Why is D90 betten then D300s at DxOMark Sensor test?
In reply to sorenbothdk, Jan 5, 2010

newer doesn't necessarily mean better. also, the d90 is based off the original D300. the fact that the d90 had the ability to shoot HD video first, many reviewers look at the value of the product. is the d300s ultimately better than the d90, yes...but there is a big cost difference.

sorenbothdk wrote:

Hi

I wonder why Nikon D90 got a better rating (72.6) then Nikon D300s (69.8) at the http://www.dxomark.com/

Nikon D300s is newer and more expensive.

Can any one explain that?

Best regards from Denmark...
Søren

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cluna
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Re: Why is D90 betten then D300s at DxOMark Sensor test?
In reply to olyflyer, Jan 5, 2010

olyflyer wrote:

cluna wrote:

Im curious which settings they used for raw on the 300s vs D90. Since the D300s has more raw tweaking ability, (compressed,uncompressed,compressed lossy, 14 or 12 bit, high iso noise.....) and the 90 has less, it would seem that we should be able to mimic the settings. Active D levels too
Anyone studied it more? I have been curious, but not devoted to it

They are different cameras, as simple as that. Different electronics, different options, different processing, different AF and different exposure. The D300s is simply a different camera made by the same manufacturer.

But that isnt the point of the "DXO Sensor test" . Its purpose is to exclude all paramentrics such as those and only be an indication of unprocessed sensor data. AF and processing have not part in that. ActiveD does however adjust the exposure in addition to processing hence my inclusion.

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cluna
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Re: Why is D90 betten then D300s at DxOMark Sensor test?
In reply to joseph costa, Jan 5, 2010

joseph costa wrote:

newer doesn't necessarily mean better. also, the d90 is based off the original D300. the fact that the d90 had the ability to shoot HD video first, many reviewers look at the value of the product. is the d300s ultimately better than the d90, yes...but there is a big cost difference.

DXO is not a review in the traditional sense..it excludes bias and quantifies in a scientific manor.

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caspianm
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Re: Why is D90 betten then D300s at DxOMark Sensor test?
In reply to cluna, Jan 5, 2010

DXO is a sensor rating based on their own raw conversion.
It is fairly accurate assesment of sensors in the given categories.
The difference may not be as significant as it appears unless it is large.
But you will need to include other factors that DXO dosen't measure.

A digital camear is not all about its iso or other sensor performance but it cannot be ignored either IMO.

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cluna
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Re: Why is D90 betten then D300s at DxOMark Sensor test?
In reply to caspianm, Jan 5, 2010

CaspianM wrote:

DXO is a sensor rating based on their own raw conversion.
It is fairly accurate assesment of sensors in the given categories.
The difference may not be as significant as it appears unless it is large.
But you will need to include other factors that DXO dosen't measure.

A digital camear is not all about its iso or other sensor performance but it cannot be ignored either IMO.

I just looked at the overlay, and it is showing the D90 with 2EV more dynamic range at the higher ISOs.

I dont even think DXO is even interpreting the RAW, each channel being tested alone and no debayering. Perhaps we are mistaken in assuming the raw output values are linear and congruent across bodies?

It really does make it necessary to post the camera settings as tested

Conjecture:

maybe there is a poor assumption that the photosites as captured in the RAW of the 'pro' and the 'consumer' cameras are congruent.

Maybe there is scaling of the data on the D90 to compress the color information given the fixed 12bit RAW option. Think of how compressors work in the Audio Realm in order to increase S/N and headroom perhaps Nikon is doing similar with the D90 and the 300s raw output varing based on the RAW output type selected?

-C

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olyflyer
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Re: Why is D90 betten then D300s at DxOMark Sensor test?
In reply to cluna, Jan 5, 2010

cluna wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

cluna wrote:

Im curious which settings they used for raw on the 300s vs D90. Since the D300s has more raw tweaking ability, (compressed,uncompressed,compressed lossy, 14 or 12 bit, high iso noise.....) and the 90 has less, it would seem that we should be able to mimic the settings. Active D levels too
Anyone studied it more? I have been curious, but not devoted to it

They are different cameras, as simple as that. Different electronics, different options, different processing, different AF and different exposure. The D300s is simply a different camera made by the same manufacturer.

But that isnt the point of the "DXO Sensor test" . Its purpose is to exclude all paramentrics such as those and only be an indication of unprocessed sensor data. AF and processing have not part in that. ActiveD does however adjust the exposure in addition to processing hence my inclusion.

It's impossible to use pure sensor data. Unprocessed sensor data is just photo transistor data, totally useless, and can not produce displayable images without processing. If you take an image and have it stored on a card it is processed in some way, even if it is a NEF raw image. A/D conversion is already a processing step, even if it is done in an A/D converter.

A digital camera is not just a sensor, if you exclude everything else and you do your own processing to be able to present an image you have a different digital camera. Totally pointless to exclude internal processing, if at all would be possible.
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Brian Caslis
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Re: Why is D90 betten then D300s at DxOMark Sensor test?
In reply to cluna, Jan 5, 2010

cluna wrote:

CaspianM wrote:

DXO is a sensor rating based on their own raw conversion.
It is fairly accurate assesment of sensors in the given categories.
The difference may not be as significant as it appears unless it is large.
But you will need to include other factors that DXO dosen't measure.

A digital camear is not all about its iso or other sensor performance but it cannot be ignored either IMO.

I just looked at the overlay, and it is showing the D90 with 2EV more dynamic range at the higher ISOs.

I dont even think DXO is even interpreting the RAW, each channel being tested alone and no debayering. Perhaps we are mistaken in assuming the raw output values are linear and congruent across bodies?

It really does make it necessary to post the camera settings as tested

Conjecture:

maybe there is a poor assumption that the photosites as captured in the RAW of the 'pro' and the 'consumer' cameras are congruent.

Maybe there is scaling of the data on the D90 to compress the color information given the fixed 12bit RAW option. Think of how compressors work in the Audio Realm in order to increase S/N and headroom perhaps Nikon is doing similar with the D90 and the 300s raw output varing based on the RAW output type selected?

-C

I don't know how DxO measures this, but from photos I've taken with both the D90 and the D300s there is no way the D90 has 2EV more dynamic range.

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caspianm
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Re: Why is D90 betten then D300s at DxOMark Sensor test?
In reply to Brian Caslis, Jan 5, 2010

Actually dpreview test of DR of D300 and d90 says the opposite. That is D300 has wider DR on both ends.
D90: -4.4-8.3 EV
D300:-4.7-8.8 EV

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DStan
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What makes you think...
In reply to cluna, Jan 6, 2010

cluna wrote:

joseph costa wrote:

newer doesn't necessarily mean better. also, the d90 is based off the original D300. the fact that the d90 had the ability to shoot HD video first, many reviewers look at the value of the product. is the d300s ultimately better than the d90, yes...but there is a big cost difference.

DXO is not a review in the traditional sense..it excludes bias and quantifies in a scientific manor.

What makes you think their software is any good. I've used their RAW conversion software and IMO it stinks and was buggy. Scientific, IMO not in this case. Not all programs function correctly or consistently.
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