a900 colour profiles in lightroom 2

Started Oct 5, 2009 | Discussions
krmuir
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a900 colour profiles in lightroom 2
Oct 5, 2009

Hi,

When I open an A900 RAW file in lightroom 2 initially the colours look good (like the processed JPEG) and then turn a bit odd (I assume the unprocessed RAW). Does anyone know how to get decent looking colours using this software?

Somebody suggested adjusting the following settings a while back

Red Primary – Hue +4 and Saturation -4
Green Primary – leave it alone!
Blue Primary – Hue +10 Saturation +6
(thanks Paul)

... but they are not quite right. I would be interested to know how other people have got on. It would be nice if you could start with the in camera settings and then make the adjustments (if that makes sense)

Thanks

Kenny

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julienA
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Re: a900 colour profiles in lightroom 2
In reply to krmuir, Oct 5, 2009

I am quite happy with

Red Primary Hue 8 Saturation 0
Green Primary Hue 0 Saturation -7
Blue Primary Hue 10 Saturation 6

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krmuir
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Re: a900 colour profiles in lightroom 2
In reply to julienA, Oct 5, 2009

Thanks I'll give that a go.
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Erik Pronske
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Are they really needed with RAW?
In reply to krmuir, Oct 5, 2009

I don't know if am missing something but isn't best to just run through the a normal workflow and adjust the different sliders in Temperature Balance, Vibrance, Saturation, Luminance, Hue, etc. to taste on a calibrated monitor? I would think that the above mentioned presets, although probably good, might not be effective for every image scene because of differences in lighting, subject, personal taste, etc.
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tompower53
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Re: Are they really needed with RAW?
In reply to Erik Pronske, Oct 6, 2009

Well the other problem with using somebody else's presets is that everyone sees color either slightly or very differently but then again you need to start somewhere so maybe give different peoples presets a try.
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eric burrows
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Re: a900 colour profiles in lightroom 2
In reply to krmuir, Oct 6, 2009

I don't touch hue and saturation at all. If the colours are off it is probably because the white balance is wrong. I set the exposure, colour temperature and tint as the first thing because it is pointless doing any other processing if they are wrong. I recently did a test taking the same picture using auto wb and a custom wb which I set using a white card. When I opened both pics in LR the difference was noticeable with the custom wb being more accurate.
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julienA
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Re: a900 colour profiles in lightroom 2
In reply to eric burrows, Oct 6, 2009

eric burrows wrote:

I don't touch hue and saturation at all. If the colours are off it is probably because the white balance is wrong. I set the exposure, colour temperature and tint as the first thing because it is pointless doing any other processing if they are wrong. I recently did a test taking the same picture using auto wb and a custom wb which I set using a white card. When I opened both pics in LR the difference was noticeable with the custom wb being more accurate.
--
eric burrows

You're right, except if adobe has not fine-tuned the A900 color profile. And this turns out to be the case. Skin tones are reddish, even with correct WB, unless you make some adjustments in the profile. There is a full thread on dyxum about this.

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eric burrows
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Re: a900 colour profiles in lightroom 2
In reply to julienA, Oct 6, 2009

I very seldom take portraits so skin tones would be the last thing that I would notice. However I shoot raw so that I have more creative control over the colours and am not averse to altering the colour temperature and tint to suit what I want which is not necessarily what it was when the shot was taken.

eric burrows

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andrea buso
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Re: a900 colour profiles in lightroom 2
In reply to krmuir, Oct 6, 2009

The colors and contrast pop up right first and then change, because LR first read the Jpeg file that is embedded in the raw file as a preview.

that jpeg file has the settings from the camera, then LR render the raw file but cannot apply the camera settings, therefore the colors go back to an uncorrected state.

the only converter that can apply the camera setting to the raw file is the Sony one.

To get nice color you need of calibrating LR to your camera shooting a colors checker and using the software utility that can be downloaded from adobe, to create a camera profile.

otherwise, you can also take a photo of a gray or white card on the scene of your subject, then you click balance on LR to get the right white balance and then tweak the colors to your taste.

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The_Suede
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Re: a900 colour profiles in lightroom 2
In reply to andrea buso, Oct 6, 2009

White-balance will only do very litle if your profile is off. That's like trying to profile your printer by changing the hue/saturation in Photoshop - it can be done if you use luminosity masks and one control for each primary/supplementary colour in the spectrum...

WB and hue only correct for overall balance, not for channel inconsistencies like the primaries in the camera having different filter sharpnesses and different slopes.

If you want to try and see whar LR can do with your files, try a custom profile. I've made this one from the X-rite digital colour checker - in blackbody spectrum light, which should work very well for most things except maybe fluorescents... The original profile is VERY accurate, but that can be a little overpowering in real life, you need a profile that's easy to use, so I've toned down the corrections a bit to make the profile "more user friendly".

You can find a profile here:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/zdmzmztzmmi/Sony DSLR-A900 A900_blackbody_light.dcp

Copy file to:

C:\Documents and Settings\ yourname \Application Data\Adobe\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles

and restart LR, you should now have a new profile in the "calibration" drop-down menu.

As with any sharp tool, it cuts both ways, you have to be careful. The profile removes the yellow cast and blue undersaturation, with some hue rotation correction in the orange-yellow. I'ts quite good, and I wouldn't hesitate to use it for product photography in a studio.

If you try it you will find that you probably will want to increase your WB values (that you probably lowered to get rid of the yellow cast!) and make the pictures warmer. This will help skintones and deep reds quite a lot. You may also find that you have to mind your exposure levels more carefully, now that you don't have to compensate for "bad colour" as much. Getting it "just right" will reward you with some truly awesome results though - try to keep in mind what reality was like. This is an "accurate" profile, not a "nice" profile.

Feel free to use the profile, and please return some feedback if you liked it...

The quick-fix in "calibration" if you don't want to use the profile (I don't recommend this, the profile has luminance aware hue corrections included - you can't do this in "calibration" and "HSL") is to use values that goes something like this (starting from the top in the "calibration" pane):
tint 0
red -13 +13
green -12 +6
blue +10 -6

And then you need to rotate some hues in the "HSL" pane, values from teh top:
Hue:
0, -15, -20, +5, -10, 0 +10, +15
Saturation:
0, +10, -10, +5, +10, 0, 0, +10
Luminance:
+10, +10, +5, -10, +5, -5, 0, -5

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Papasha
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Very interesting...
In reply to The_Suede, Oct 6, 2009

Thank you for sharing your work with us here! I usually work with CameraRAW in Photoshop, although I do use LightRoom for initial import into catalog. Will give your profile a trial...

The_Suede wrote:

White-balance will only do very litle if your profile is off. That's like trying to profile your printer by changing the hue/saturation in Photoshop - it can be done if you use luminosity masks and one control for each primary/supplementary colour in the spectrum...

WB and hue only correct for overall balance, not for channel inconsistencies like the primaries in the camera having different filter sharpnesses and different slopes.

If you want to try and see whar LR can do with your files, try a custom profile. I've made this one from the X-rite digital colour checker - in blackbody spectrum light, which should work very well for most things except maybe fluorescents... The original profile is VERY accurate, but that can be a little overpowering in real life, you need a profile that's easy to use, so I've toned down the corrections a bit to make the profile "more user friendly".

You can find a profile here:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/zdmzmztzmmi/Sony DSLR-A900 A900_blackbody_light.dcp

Copy file to:

C:\Documents and Settings\ yourname \Application Data\Adobe\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles

and restart LR, you should now have a new profile in the "calibration" drop-down menu.

As with any sharp tool, it cuts both ways, you have to be careful. The profile removes the yellow cast and blue undersaturation, with some hue rotation correction in the orange-yellow. I'ts quite good, and I wouldn't hesitate to use it for product photography in a studio.

If you try it you will find that you probably will want to increase your WB values (that you probably lowered to get rid of the yellow cast!) and make the pictures warmer. This will help skintones and deep reds quite a lot. You may also find that you have to mind your exposure levels more carefully, now that you don't have to compensate for "bad colour" as much. Getting it "just right" will reward you with some truly awesome results though - try to keep in mind what reality was like. This is an "accurate" profile, not a "nice" profile.

Feel free to use the profile, and please return some feedback if you liked it...

The quick-fix in "calibration" if you don't want to use the profile (I don't recommend this, the profile has luminance aware hue corrections included - you can't do this in "calibration" and "HSL") is to use values that goes something like this (starting from the top in the "calibration" pane):
tint 0
red -13 +13
green -12 +6
blue +10 -6

And then you need to rotate some hues in the "HSL" pane, values from teh top:
Hue:
0, -15, -20, +5, -10, 0 +10, +15
Saturation:
0, +10, -10, +5, +10, 0, 0, +10
Luminance:
+10, +10, +5, -10, +5, -5, 0, -5

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austinnyc
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Re: Very interesting...
In reply to Papasha, Oct 6, 2009

Every camera has a slight different color to it my A-700 will be slightly different than yours than yours. The first thing I do with a new body is take some images of a color checker and calibrate that body to ACR. This is something anyone who is serious about getting the proper color should do, as well as set a custom WB to the lighting conditions and yes even while shooting RAW!
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mike_2008
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Re: Very interesting...
In reply to austinnyc, Oct 6, 2009

Can you explain exactly how you do this?

austinnyc wrote:

Every camera has a slight different color to it my A-700 will be slightly different than yours than yours. The first thing I do with a new body is take some images of a color checker and calibrate that body to ACR. This is something anyone who is serious about getting the proper color should do, as well as set a custom WB to the lighting conditions and yes even while shooting RAW!
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The_Suede
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Re: Very interesting...
In reply to mike_2008, Oct 6, 2009

Erik Chan, one of the guys behind the ARC/LR softwares, has a short write up here:
http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/acr/

It's based on the 24-colour classic Gretag/Xrite colorchecker, which is a bit poor in dark and light hues. It's mostly about the stronger, more saturated mid-band colours. This will give you quite good results, but can be a bit lacking when it comes to very light/very dark hue rotation... Ideally if you shoot something with a certain (solid) colour and do a +2Ev and a -2Ev bracket all three exposures should translate into the same hue. Most often they don't, depending on your chosen s-curve and so on, but in linear space at least.

A good calibration target has got at least 3-4 variations of the primary colours, so that you can "nail" the wavelengths of the three most important points in the calibration (XYZ coordinates of the individual R, G and B channels in the raw)

Most cameras have VERY little colour shift comparing different samples of the same model. Some variation can occur, but it's usually smaller than the "normal" calibration acuracy. So don't bother. I've tested at least 3 50D's, 2 A900's, 4 D3's, 4 1Ds3's and 2 D700's with a VERY discriminate tool, our Heidelberg colormatch tool that we use in pre-press work. The difference between the different bodies (in each model) was so small that it was negligible, under 0.4 dE. This can of course be [not true] when sampling cameras manufactured in earlier/later batches, sold in other countries and so on. But most of the time the CFA-plate is VERY tightly speced and has very little colour deviation over a product's lifetime.

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The_Suede
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Re: Very interesting...
In reply to The_Suede, Oct 6, 2009

I just realized how my last post sounds.... :-/

The Gretag/Xrite 24 is not a bad tool for calibrating cameras, but it CAN be a little lacking if you want to be really precise. For almost ANY purpose it's more than good enough though, and at least a LOT better than using no profile at all, or the Adobe "standard".

My guess is that Adobe is very careful with their profiles, as "to sharp tools" would frighten a lot of users. A "soft" and very forgiving (but not very accurate) profile often gives better results (not really... but "less work" to get acceptable results at least) when put into complex mixed-light situations and difficult light like fluorescents and such. It will also care less if your WB is a bit off.

But if you want good, accurate colour... There's no way around doing your own profile (or using someone else's profile)

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krmuir
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Re: Very interesting...
In reply to The_Suede, Oct 6, 2009

thanks for all the very helpful suggestions. much appreciated. It makes LR2 a lot more useable for those that work with RAW.

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Kenny

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dynacam
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Re: a900 colour profiles in lightroom 2
In reply to The_Suede, Oct 7, 2009

Thanks for the profile, it is good to get something like this as I do not have the means to make my own, I will give it a go
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andrewrocks
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offical sony a900 lightroom profile?
In reply to krmuir, Oct 7, 2009

long story short, there was a vaio that shipped with lightroom. This copy of lightroom included an specific a900 profile.

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/swu-download.pl?mdl=VGNAW290&upd_id=4453&os_id=36

i think it might be "driver" might be model locked so it would only work if you own a VGN-AW290, and if it is i can just upload the actual preset. If that's the case let me know.

But as i don't own a a900 I have never really looked into this too much. I just installed it into my copy of lr2 v2.5 and it changes the tone curve, exposure and i think contrast.

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dynacam
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Re: offical sony a900 lightroom profile?
In reply to andrewrocks, Oct 7, 2009

Downloaded and installed OK, tried it out and looks OK, but the other profile A900_blackbody_light seems to give a better look .
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Papasha
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Reporting back – excellent profile!
In reply to The_Suede, Oct 8, 2009

Hello again The_Suede, thanks for your post and sharing the profile you’ve created. I finally had a chance to try it on few portraits I printed last week and this time I redid them with your profile. I noticed instant better skin tone, gone was slight dead yellowish cast, nice lively red popped in and hands, face immediately started to look more alive! I had another long exposure shot of a house with red bricks taken at midnight and applying your profile instantly brought in so much better red color there without negatively shifting overall balance, very impressive!

I attribute that to the deep knowledge and access to good equipment you poses. You mentioned that you toned down this profile from the original, which was a little harsh, but also more accurate, if I understood you correctly. Would it be possible for you to share this original profile with us as well? Now I am really intrigued…

Also, do you think it would be wise to go extra step and make camera specific calibration (meaning for my specific version of A900)? Would you be able to guide or make one for me (maybe others?). I wouldn’t mind paying for your work, as I start to feel that this is rather important step, I have been avoiding, spending extra RAW post-processing time instead.

In any case, thank you so much, I’ll be using it as my starting point from now on on my A900…

The_Suede wrote:

White-balance will only do very litle if your profile is off. That's like trying to profile your printer by changing the hue/saturation in Photoshop - it can be done if you use luminosity masks and one control for each primary/supplementary colour in the spectrum...

WB and hue only correct for overall balance, not for channel inconsistencies like the primaries in the camera having different filter sharpnesses and different slopes.

If you want to try and see whar LR can do with your files, try a custom profile. I've made this one from the X-rite digital colour checker - in blackbody spectrum light, which should work very well for most things except maybe fluorescents... The original profile is VERY accurate, but that can be a little overpowering in real life, you need a profile that's easy to use, so I've toned down the corrections a bit to make the profile "more user friendly".

You can find a profile here:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/zdmzmztzmmi/Sony DSLR-A900 A900_blackbody_light.dcp

Copy file to:

C:\Documents and Settings\ yourname \Application Data\Adobe\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles

and restart LR, you should now have a new profile in the "calibration" drop-down menu.

As with any sharp tool, it cuts both ways, you have to be careful. The profile removes the yellow cast and blue undersaturation, with some hue rotation correction in the orange-yellow. I'ts quite good, and I wouldn't hesitate to use it for product photography in a studio.

If you try it you will find that you probably will want to increase your WB values (that you probably lowered to get rid of the yellow cast!) and make the pictures warmer. This will help skintones and deep reds quite a lot. You may also find that you have to mind your exposure levels more carefully, now that you don't have to compensate for "bad colour" as much. Getting it "just right" will reward you with some truly awesome results though - try to keep in mind what reality was like. This is an "accurate" profile, not a "nice" profile.

Feel free to use the profile, and please return some feedback if you liked it...

The quick-fix in "calibration" if you don't want to use the profile (I don't recommend this, the profile has luminance aware hue corrections included - you can't do this in "calibration" and "HSL") is to use values that goes something like this (starting from the top in the "calibration" pane):
tint 0
red -13 +13
green -12 +6
blue +10 -6

And then you need to rotate some hues in the "HSL" pane, values from teh top:
Hue:
0, -15, -20, +5, -10, 0 +10, +15
Saturation:
0, +10, -10, +5, +10, 0, 0, +10
Luminance:
+10, +10, +5, -10, +5, -5, 0, -5

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