Some of you 'Pros' are great but... Locked

Started Aug 1, 2009 | Discussions
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Enjoihcky247
Contributing MemberPosts: 735
Some of you 'Pros' are great but...
Aug 1, 2009

Some of you are quite elitist at times.

I think you guys need to realize that when you tag a forum 'pro' the non-pros are going to ask questions there. Now if you're offended by these "newbies arrogance" at the fact that they think they can master your 'ubar' technique then just ignore it. Time and time again I see some poor guy (or gal) come here and ask for a few tips on how to shoot their friends wedding, and you guys rip him to shreds for having the audacity to think that he could even undertake a such a monumental task, when infact, the bride and groom have told said newbie that they just need someone to take pictures for them because they can't afford a real photographer. In reality the couple probably only asked someone to take pictures for them because they can't do them themselves while they're busy soaking up the day of their lifetime.

That is just a specific example. There are too many to quote and I'm sure many of you will agree.

Regardless I find myself coming back to this section of the forum all the time to read the material here just gain whatever insight it may yield me (yeah, I'm one of those arrogant newbies who dares to make his feeble attempt at photography).

There's no question you guys know your stuff but I'm sure that you'll get a lot more respect by being helpful than by being demeaning and condescending.

Just my two cents, take it for what it's worth (probably just about $.02).

Franka T.L.
Veteran MemberPosts: 7,448Gear list
Re: Some of you 'Pros' are great but...
In reply to Enjoihcky247, Aug 1, 2009

I am with you on this despite I myself do freelance wedding photography , and studio work .. there's rea;;y no reason why PROs should be regarding enthusiastic amateur the way the OP stated. Given that many PRO on this forum are helpful too; we must observe.

BY any mean, a forum for healthy discussion can had heated debate, or even controversial topics, radical view or just conservative one, but really there is no reason to blindly discriminate or using that to demote others

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  • Franka -

WNPmedia
Regular MemberPosts: 147
Re: Some of you 'Pros' are great but arrogarent- is that it?
In reply to Enjoihcky247, Aug 1, 2009

Speaking for myself, I have a tiny bit of an issue when some arrogarent "non-Pro" posts a messages asking for advise on how to pose for a family shoot he's booked for tomorrow and when he gets the advice + a bit of scarsasm for leaving it so late... Get's stuck into the Pros who all think the same thing... He left it a bit late.

I've got issues too, with people like you who seem to be trolling for a response rather than asking advice or offering it. Other than that, if someone has a specific question about a specific subject, I beleive I and most other Pros will answer it in a cordial manner and without the malice your post seems to be framed with.

WNP
--
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be flying low and fully loaded!

kevin Auyong
Regular MemberPosts: 303
Re: Some of you 'Pros' are great but arrogarent- is that it?
In reply to WNPmedia, Aug 1, 2009

Well another way to look at it is how about if the pros don't respond at all with an answer if they are going to put in a smart or elitist remark?
Then the newbie get's fewer answers period. Does that help them out?
I'd rather get chided but get a good answer than no answer at all.

Also keep in mind some of the newbies are quite arrogant themselves. If they don't hear the answer they want they get insulting. Heck some don't even thank any of the pros who respond to their questions-I've seen that a lot.

Some of the things I've learned over the years I paid thousands to learn at classes and workshops. Why am I obligated to tell you a secret that I paid to learn for free? Heck you're the that needs help, not me. So you might want to remember who is the benificiary . . . a few comments about the poster asking questions the night before might be well worth the advice they get in return.
--
hey really . . . I'm only trying to help

Tom Batinich
Senior MemberPosts: 1,176
Re: Some of you 'Pros' are great but arrogarent- is that it?
In reply to WNPmedia, Aug 1, 2009

I Agree with you. And it's also the reason there are so few pros posting here as apposed to 7 years ago. Thankfully the are "pro" forums that you have to pay to be on and they do provide a great resource.

David Phipps
Senior MemberPosts: 1,006
Re: Some of you 'Pros' are great but arrogarent- is that it?
In reply to Tom Batinich, Aug 1, 2009

I was just in one of these conversations. I did give the OP one smart comment and the rest of 3? paragraphs was meant to help. He? didn't see it that way. I find it equally frustrating trying to help someone when 1. they don't supply anywhere near enough information to answer them. 2. They never reply and answer your questions so you can help them. 3. Others chime in with answers when they don't have any more information then i did and there's no way they have the information to answer. and lastly 4. they never thank you or post the results of how the shoot went.
--
I shot the White Album and other untruths by,
David Phipps

Yetikeeper
Regular MemberPosts: 131
Re: Some of you 'Pros' are great but...
In reply to Enjoihcky247, Aug 1, 2009

thats life. there are good pro's and bad pro's. Some dont mind sharing their knowledge and others think they are Gods. Some are nice, others are totally rude and obnoxious. the only advice i can give is dont take any of it too seriously.

bm bradley
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,975Gear list
Re: Some of you 'Pros' are great but arrogarent- is that it?
In reply to kevin Auyong, Aug 1, 2009

kevin Auyong wrote:
Why am I obligated to tell you a secret that I paid to learn for free?

exactly, and if not $ at the very least in time and effort. seems like no one one to shoot and look at an image anymore. just show up here and DEMAND answers.
--
'when I ask you what time it is, don't tell me how to build a watch'

 bm bradley's gear list:bm bradley's gear list
Nikon D3X Nikon D800 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 200mm f/2G ED-IF VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 300mm f/2.8G ED-IF VR +3 more
JPP801
Contributing MemberPosts: 946
Re: Some of you 'Pros' are great but...
In reply to Enjoihcky247, Aug 1, 2009

Enjoihcky247 wrote:

Some of you are quite elitist at times.

I think you guys need to realize that when you tag a forum 'pro' the non-pros are going to ask questions there. Now if you're offended by these "newbies arrogance" at the fact that they think they can master your 'ubar' technique then just ignore it. Time and time again I see some poor guy (or gal) come here and ask for a few tips on how to shoot their friends wedding, and you guys rip him to shreds for having the audacity to think that he could even undertake a such a monumental task, when infact, the bride and groom have told said newbie that they just need someone to take pictures for them because they can't afford a real photographer. In reality the couple probably only asked someone to take pictures for them because they can't do them themselves while they're busy soaking up the day of their lifetime.

That is just a specific example. There are too many to quote and I'm sure many of you will agree.

Regardless I find myself coming back to this section of the forum all the time to read the material here just gain whatever insight it may yield me (yeah, I'm one of those arrogant newbies who dares to make his feeble attempt at photography).

There's no question you guys know your stuff but I'm sure that you'll get a lot more respect by being helpful than by being demeaning and condescending.

Just my two cents, take it for what it's worth (probably just about $.02).

I think I'll pass on trying to be accepted into "the sharing community".

I previously posted in here in the naive hope that I would get answers of a similarly qualified level to some things that I perhaps needed to know. Obviously. that hope is laughable so I'll just look in now and again and see what comedy is being spouted at the time.

I wont lose any sleep about the "membership" not getting any answers and it wont effect my business or progression, one iota.

Good luck everyone.

llpoolej
Senior MemberPosts: 1,503
Re: Some of you 'Pros' are great but...
In reply to Enjoihcky247, Aug 1, 2009

OK, I think people get their feelings hurt, find those responding to be elitist or whatever. What they are not understanding is it isn't as easy as buying a new camera and having your pals say "Wow, you are awesome! You should sell your photos!"

Say you are really good with numbers, you don't go and decide to be an accountant by asking how to do a spread sheet on a message board, you train for it in real life.

Your really good at running fast, but, you don't go on a message board and ask how to run in the Olympics. You TRAIN for it.

People who do this for a living, who take it seriously who have spent years learning how to photograph in all situations, can't tell you in a sentence how to shoot your first cousin's wedding. You will probably screw it up no matter what anyone says if you have to ask. Then you have a cousin that will never really forgive you and you are mad that no one told you how to do it. It just isn't that easy.

Maybe the REAL pros, which aren't that many on this forum, as it is open to the world and not really full of great business advice, just are tired of trying to help and not getting anywhere. A waste of their effort and time

The much better way to learn is to get a real life mentor, or set of mentors in your area. Second shoot. Assist. Then you won't have to come on a free dpreview forum and ask a question you should know the answer to when charging someone for a job
--

http://JuliePoole.com

Skip M
Veteran MemberPosts: 7,171
Other side of the coin...
In reply to Enjoihcky247, Aug 1, 2009

Two points.

One, since you mention the guys who come here lookng for wedding photo help, is that so many non pro photogs feel that wedding photography is easy, and a quick way to break into making money at their hobby. They approach it with the attitude that many of the bridal couples do, along the lines of, "Hey, I've got a nice DSLR, a couple of lenses and a flash, what could be hard about it?" One recently asked what he should focus on for large groups! Just what the heck does he think he should focus on, Uncle George out on the end of the lineup, or the bride and groom in the center? The answer should be obvious! Another guy asked what lens to get to augment his 18-200 for weddings. I'd no more shoot a wedding with a cheap super zoom than I'd shoot it with a point and shoot. It's tough to take such requests seriously, when you've worked for years to hone your craft, and thousand of dollars to build up your equipment list.

The other point is more general. A lot of pros are facing a lot of economic pressure, right now, given the conditions out in the real world. Many of them feel these non pros are taking jobs away from, if not them, another pro who could really use the work. It's taken many of those pros years of work, and in some cases, years of school, to get where they are. Why should they hand off the benefit of all those years to someone who wants to shortcut the whole thing and start in the middle, rather than the beginning?
--
Skip M
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
http://www.pbase.com/skipm
http://skipm.smugmug.com/
'Living in the heart of a dream, in the Promised Land!'
John Stewart

BAK
BAK
Forum ProPosts: 18,997
Re: Some of you 'Pros' are great but...
In reply to Enjoihcky247, Aug 1, 2009

I enjoy the baking forum, where old Grannies ask for recipes for wedding cakes for poor brides and grooms.

BAK

Skip M
Veteran MemberPosts: 7,171
Seminars, classes, schools...
In reply to kevin Auyong, Aug 1, 2009

kevin Auyong wrote:

Some of the things I've learned over the years I paid thousands to learn at classes and workshops. Why am I obligated to tell you a secret that I paid to learn for free? Heck you're the that needs help, not me. So you might want to remember who is the benificiary . . . a few comments about the poster asking questions the night before might be well worth the advice they get in return.
--
hey really . . . I'm only trying to help

To take your comment further, we, on occasion, present seminars at our studio taught by people who have a certain area of expertise. Those classes are open to everybody for a reasonable fee, so why should I present information here for free that others have to pay for?

The same goes for knowledge gained at some expense by some here. Why should it be shared for free?
--
Skip M
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
http://www.pbase.com/skipm
http://skipm.smugmug.com/
'Living in the heart of a dream, in the Promised Land!'
John Stewart

Knezz
Regular MemberPosts: 269
I'm one of those "Newbie" type species...
In reply to llpoolej, Aug 1, 2009

I’m one of those “Newbie” type species that you are speaking of. I’ve asked may of questions. At times I get good, quick and concise answers. Other times not so good. I’ve been bashed for not taking one member’s suggestion over another’s.

I see it this way- I do as much reading and application as time permits (lately work has not permitted much time). I ask questions, I read the responses and make the best decision I can make with the information I gathered. I then choose what to accept form all of the responses. Doing this, I’ve had my share of success and failures but that’s what learning is about.

Sometimes a snide remark or tongue lashing is unsettling – if I can take 8 years in the Marine Corps I can take this. The bottom line is, I’m looking for information. If I have to take an abuse or two to get the info.. then so be it (just give me the darn info). If you aren’t going to give info and just “tongue lash” then don’t waist your time nor mine by responding to the post. Those who do – get a life. Looking back at some of the questions I asked in the past – some of them did make for good targets. If it upset me that much I shouldn’t come back for more. Would I prefer everyone to be cordial and friendly – yes.. but that’s not the real world.

BTW – To me - It appears that Nikon owners are elitist and I’m a Nikon own. But that’s another post for another day.
--
Regards,
K. Nezz

Knezz
Regular MemberPosts: 269
Wow!! I just come for help!! I want to grow..
In reply to bm bradley, Aug 1, 2009

bm bradley wrote:

kevin Auyong wrote:
Why am I obligated to tell you a secret that I paid to learn for free?

exactly, and if not $ at the very least in time and effort. seems like no one one to shoot and look at an image anymore. just show up here and DEMAND answers.
--
'when I ask you what time it is, don't tell me how to build a watch'

That means that you feel because you paid for information with $$ or time you don't wish to share it. Why would you come to an informational forum at all? Why would you ask question that other spent either their $$ or time learning?
--
Regards,
K. Nezz

Bruce Allen Hendricks
Contributing MemberPosts: 820
Re: Other side of the coin...
In reply to Skip M, Aug 1, 2009

Skip M wrote:

Two points.

One, since you mention the guys who come here lookng for wedding photo help, is that so many non pro photogs feel that wedding photography is easy, and a quick way to break into making money at their hobby. They approach it with the attitude that many of the bridal couples do, along the lines of, "Hey, I've got a nice DSLR, a couple of lenses and a flash, what could be hard about it?" One recently asked what he should focus on for large groups! Just what the heck does he think he should focus on, Uncle George out on the end of the lineup, or the bride and groom in the center? The answer should be obvious! Another guy asked what lens to get to augment his 18-200 for weddings. I'd no more shoot a wedding with a cheap super zoom than I'd shoot it with a point and shoot. It's tough to take such requests seriously, when you've worked for years to hone your craft, and thousand of dollars to build up your equipment list.

The other point is more general. A lot of pros are facing a lot of economic pressure, right now, given the conditions out in the real world. Many of them feel these non pros are taking jobs away from, if not them, another pro who could really use the work. It's taken many of those pros years of work, and in some cases, years of school, to get where they are. Why should they hand off the benefit of all those years to someone who wants to shortcut the whole thing and start in the middle, rather than the beginning?
--
Skip M
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
http://www.pbase.com/skipm
http://skipm.smugmug.com/
'Living in the heart of a dream, in the Promised Land!'
John Stewart

Skip is right on the money.....only he said it a little more politically correct then I would. If you want my info, you better be prepaired to pay for it. Most pros don't mind sharing with other pros because give or take they at least recognize the one asking is beyond "the basics and is trying to make a living out of photography and is not the $20 8x10 or less type people (I betcha that just upset about 80% of the people reading this post).

I said it before and will say it again...having a fancy camera doesn't make you a professional photographer any more then sitting in your garage makes you a car.

There really should be a qualification to be able to get into the pro forum to read and post here. The fact that 80% of the people in this forum are not real pros is what is killiing this forum.

FYI SKIP

I will say the Nikon 18-200MM makes a great wedding assistant lens. Hell, I've know Master Photographers who are incredibly awesome who use it as their day to day lens. It's not what you have, it's what you are able to do with it that counts. I'd trust a real pro with a P&S over uncle Joe with a fancy DSLR kit any day - at leastthe pro will know what to do to get the most out of what he she has.

Bruce Allen Hendricks MPA, F.Ph.
http://www.impactphotographicdesign.com

Jacques Cornell
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,438Gear list
Some of you 'Newbies' are great but...
In reply to Enjoihcky247, Aug 1, 2009

If there's an attitude issue here, it's partly due to non-pros who come here mooch and whine.

If you've got a question, do some research and post an intelligent request. You'll find lots of knowledgeable folks here happy to help, including me. If you're lazy and just wade in demanding attention and the keys to the kingdom, you'll be shooed away like a noisy kid at a cocktail party.

Enjoihcky247 wrote:

Some of you are quite elitist at times.

Some of you are quite selfish at times.

Time and time again I see some poor guy (or gal) come here and ask for a few tips on how to shoot their friends wedding, and you guys rip him to shreds for having the audacity to think that he could even undertake a such a monumental task, when infact, the bride and groom have told said newbie that they just need someone to take pictures for them because they can't afford a real photographer.

More often, people get ripped to shreds for irresponsibly making commitments they don't even know how to keep. Taking on paid assignments without experience, knowledge or backup equipment. It's unfair to the clients and it's unfair to the pros who are asked to rescue the situation.

That is just a specific example. There are too many to quote and I'm sure many of you will agree.

I agree that some pros are unnecessarily unpleasant. Just as often, though, some non-pros are lazy and selfish. Not all or even most of them, but enough to seriously annoy those of us who are interested in having an adult conversation.

Regardless I find myself coming back to this section of the forum all the time to read the material here just gain whatever insight it may yield me (yeah, I'm one of those arrogant newbies who dares to make his feeble attempt at photography).

So, you admit that there are pros here who are helpful. And, don't be so defensive. You're perfectly welcome here. Maybe someone here beat you down, deservedly or not. But, as I said, if you take your photography seriously and show at least the same level of respect and appreciation as you would when asking someone on the street for a quarter to feed your parking meter, you'll find many of us happy to share.

There's no question you guys know your stuff but I'm sure that you'll get a lot more respect by being helpful than by being demeaning and condescending.

And you'll get a lot more respect by being helpful than by venting your grievances at all of us as if we were all the same. You got a beef with someone, don't shout at me about it.

-- hide signature --

'No matter where you go, there you are.'

 Jacques Cornell's gear list:Jacques Cornell's gear list
Canon EOS-1D Mark III Canon EOS-1Ds Mark III Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX1 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G3 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G6 +33 more
JPP801
Contributing MemberPosts: 946
Re: Other side of the coin...
In reply to Bruce Allen Hendricks, Aug 1, 2009

Hello Bruce,

Bruce Allen Hendricks wrote:

Skip is right on the money.....only he said it a little more politically correct then I would. If you want my info, you better be prepaired to pay for it. Most pros don't mind sharing with other pros because give or take they at least recognize the one asking is beyond "the basics and is trying to make a living out of photography and is not the $20 8x10 or less type people (I betcha that just upset about 80% of the people reading this post).

Ho Ho Ho Ho Ho Ho Ho.... love it, Bruce.

I said it before and will say it again...having a fancy camera doesn't make you a professional photographer any more then sitting in your garage makes you a car.

There really should be a qualification to be able to get into the pro forum to read and post here. The fact that 80% of the people in this forum are not real pros is what is killiing this forum.

I think you are being a bit conservative with the 80% though, I'd say its nearer to 98%. The camera clubs must be empty these days, they are all in here, lol.

Jeff Behm
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,304
Re: Other side of the coin...
In reply to Skip M, Aug 1, 2009

What Skip and WNP wrote. Nice.

-- hide signature --
Skip M
Veteran MemberPosts: 7,171
Re: Other side of the coin...
In reply to Bruce Allen Hendricks, Aug 1, 2009

Bruce Allen Hendricks wrote:

FYI SKIP

I will say the Nikon 18-200MM makes a great wedding assistant lens. Hell, I've know Master Photographers who are incredibly awesome who use it as their day to day lens. It's not what you have, it's what you are able to do with it that counts. I'd trust a real pro with a P&S over uncle Joe with a fancy DSLR kit any day - at leastthe pro will know what to do to get the most out of what he she has.

I know, Bruce. In fact, I've considered getting an 18-200 for our assistant's cameras. But it was the implication that the owner of the 18-200 in question didn't even know what lens he needed to go along with that that set me back. I could't even begin to answer that question, because my wedding kit spans exactly that range, 16-200mm, but spread over 3 lenses.

I've also considered getting a full frame equivalent to use as my day to day lens, when I don't feel like carrying a bag full of lenses but don't want to get caught out without the right focal length... Just for goofing around, nothing serious.

-- hide signature --

Skip M
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
http://www.pbase.com/skipm
http://skipm.smugmug.com/
'Living in the heart of a dream, in the Promised Land!'
John Stewart

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