official Canon response to my black spots

Started Dec 15, 2008 | Discussions
davejp
Regular MemberPosts: 339
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official Canon response to my black spots
Dec 15, 2008

I got an email today from Canon Japan with an update on their investigation into the 5D Mark II black spots.

-First they say that many others have reported the problem since I reported it about 10 days ago.

-A firmware update is being prepared that should "mitigate" the problem. They add a link to the Japanese EOS firmware update page as to where to check for the update http://cweb.canon.jp/drv-upd/eosd/farm.html . Nothing there yet.

The also suggest the following fix/workaround. This is exactly what the mail recommends and this concerns me. I have never shot with High ISO NR... will have to test to see how bad it looks:

Canon's instructions.

  • go to C. Fn II-2 "Image"

  • go to High ISO speed noise reduction

  • select 2:Strong

  • click set

Previously all my black spot shots used the High ISO NR setting of 0:Standard.

I will try to take some samples tonight and post later if I find anything interesting. Worried that high ISO NR at strong would look blotchy/clay-like. never tested it.

-- hide signature --

EOS 5D & 5D Mark II, and some lenses.
http://dave.jp

Ludovic Monchat
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That is ridiculous
In reply to davejp, Dec 15, 2008

Setting the NR to strong everything** is washed away so of course** there will be no more black spots, along with no more detail...

And as per the firmware -mitigating- the problem, I must confess my deep disappointment. I've not suffered yet from this issue on my cam, chance probably, but I will not accept that a MAJOR brand like Canon continue producing defective products.

I hope the sales will considerably slow as there is one only solution to push a brand to progress : money.

Ludo from Paris
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Bastian09
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ROFL
In reply to Ludovic Monchat, Dec 15, 2008

Thats what I just thought, too.

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Taikonaut
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Re: official Canon response to my black spots
In reply to davejp, Dec 15, 2008

At least we now know for definate that Canon is comming up with a firmware fix.
Like many new dSLRs there is bound to be bugs with the early release.

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Karma Traveler
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I don't like the word
In reply to davejp, Dec 15, 2008

davejp wrote:

-A firmware update is being prepared that should "mitigate" the
problem. They add a link to the Japanese EOS firmware update page as
to where to check for the update

I don't like the word "mitigate". It implies that the firmware will simply try to cover up the symptoms of the problem, instead of fixing the source of the problem. My fear is that this black dot problem is a hardware issue that cannot be fixed by firmware. And that the firmware will simply remove the black dots after-the-fact, similar to the way Long Exposure NR removes stuck pixels.

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Ludovic Monchat
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If it works like the long exposure NR, that would be good
In reply to Karma Traveler, Dec 15, 2008

This NR works very well and I never have had any complains regarding this common feature.

My fear is that a stuck pixel is way smaller and easy to hide than a buch of them...

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Ludo from Paris
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Kluso
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Re: I don't like the word MITIGATE
In reply to Karma Traveler, Dec 15, 2008

Karma Traveler wrote:

davejp wrote:

-A firmware update is being prepared that should "mitigate" the
problem. They add a link to the Japanese EOS firmware update page as
to where to check for the update

I don't like the word "mitigate". It implies that the firmware will
simply try to cover up the symptoms of the problem, instead of fixing
the source of the problem. My fear is that this black dot problem is
a hardware issue that cannot be fixed by firmware. And that the
firmware will simply remove the black dots after-the-fact, similar to
the way Long Exposure NR removes stuck pixels.

uhm, this is sad indeed, seems Canon will copy what Nikon did with the D200 banding they fiddled and hood winked most into incorrectly thinking Nikon had done something BUT they did not 100% fix it and the reason was it meant a hardware change and money - so let the customer suffer and save money.

I see a lot of simliarities between Nikon's D200 banding fiasco and the 5DII black spots even with the silly posts denying it as a real problem, same thing happened with D200 forums full of idiots saying they dont shoot light bulbs for a living.

Even when Nikon announced that they could NOT fix D200 banding some will even today tell you as FACT that it was oinly a problem with early production, that is how well BS works and time makes some people forget the facts.

One noticeable difference with the 5DII is that reviews I have seen so far ALL mention the black spots, how will Canon be able to ignore those reviews, oh I know people will soon start posting that it was only a problem with early production 5DII.
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planetMitch
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Re: If it works like the long exposure NR, that would be good
In reply to Ludovic Monchat, Dec 15, 2008

thanks for the update!

(adding thread to wiki)
--
Mitch
http://planet5d.com NEW! planet5d.com THE 5d Wiki!
(includes mk ii info and samples - all in one central location)
http://twitter.com/planetMitch - posting status updates on twitter

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davejp
Regular MemberPosts: 339
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Re: official Canon response to my black spots
In reply to davejp, Dec 15, 2008

Ok, so Strong NR slightly reduces the problem? Hopefully the firmware update does better than this.

These are 300% crops at different high ISO NR settings. Very quick shots on the way home, even worse I only had my 100mm lens with me today.

-- hide signature --

EOS 5D & 5D Mark II, and some lenses.
http://dave.jp

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Ludovic Monchat
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,217
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Funny, it doesn't work...(nt)
In reply to davejp, Dec 15, 2008

davejp wrote:

Ok, so Strong NR slightly reduces the problem? Hopefully the firmware
update does better than this.

These are 300% crops at different high ISO NR settings. Very quick
shots on the way home, even worse I only had my 100mm lens with me
today.

-- hide signature --

EOS 5D & 5D Mark II, and some lenses.
http://dave.jp

-- hide signature --

Ludo from Paris
Tankers of tools, thimbles of talent
BestOf http://ludo.smugmug.com/gallery/1158249

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harold1968
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,687Gear list
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first firmware release can mitigate
In reply to davejp, Dec 15, 2008

that doesn't mean that this won't be final, or that a second firmware fix might not get rid of it

I am not convinced this is a sensor issue for many reasons.

davejp wrote:

I got an email today from Canon Japan with an update on their
investigation into the 5D Mark II black spots.

-First they say that many others have reported the problem since I
reported it about 10 days ago.

-A firmware update is being prepared that should "mitigate" the
problem. They add a link to the Japanese EOS firmware update page as
to where to check for the update
http://cweb.canon.jp/drv-upd/eosd/farm.html . Nothing there yet.

The also suggest the following fix/workaround. This is exactly what
the mail recommends and this concerns me. I have never shot with High
ISO NR... will have to test to see how bad it looks:

Canon's instructions.

  • go to C. Fn II-2 "Image"

  • go to High ISO speed noise reduction

  • select 2:Strong

  • click set

Previously all my black spot shots used the High ISO NR setting of
0:Standard.

I will try to take some samples tonight and post later if I find
anything interesting. Worried that high ISO NR at strong would look
blotchy/clay-like. never tested it.

-- hide signature --

EOS 5D & 5D Mark II, and some lenses.
http://dave.jp

 harold1968's gear list:harold1968's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZS30 Sony RX1R Olympus E-M1 Sony Alpha 7 Sony FE 35mm F2.8 +1 more
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davejp
Regular MemberPosts: 339
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Re: first firmware release can mitigate
In reply to harold1968, Dec 15, 2008

harold1968 wrote:

that doesn't mean that this won't be final, or that a second firmware
fix might not get rid of it

I am not convinced this is a sensor issue for many reasons.

I am with you on that. I do think FW can fix this. And since the 5D uses the same base sensor as the 1Ds III with only a different filter and processing I believe, either firmware or a free filter change by Canon should resolve this. Unless there is some other hardware change I don't know about it.

-- hide signature --

EOS 5D & 5D Mark II, and some lenses.
http://dave.jp

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andyyau
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Will 5D2 be another 1D3? (nt)
In reply to Karma Traveler, Dec 15, 2008

no text

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AmateurX
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This is not good!
In reply to davejp, Dec 15, 2008

On the behalf of all the 5D2 owners, I'm also concerned about the chosen word: Mitigate.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mitigate

If this problem won't get fixed completely, or if the fix will compromise the IQ, I guess many people will start selling their bodies. But then I guess it will be hard to sell if they don't drop the price severely. Personally, even if the 5D2 came to the price level of the 50D, which I'm going to buy soon, I'd still not buy one because I think this problem is too serious even though I'm mostly not shooting at night. I just don’t want to pay that much for a flaw that other FF body brands doesn't have. If the flaw gets fixed completely, then there's nothing to worry about. But if I had a 5D2 body at this point, I would have been quite worried!

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Oak and Acorn
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Hmm, I'm thinking that their firmware patch is going to apply
In reply to davejp, Dec 15, 2008

High ISO noise removal forceably, and that's how they are going to end up fixing the problem of black spots. If that's the case - not good at all.

Good luck to any who are suffering with this issue! Make sure you take PLENTY of test shots now, for comparison with shots AFTER the firmware update so you can see whether or not stronger noise removal is being applied to your shots, even with High ISO NR turned to "Off" in your camera.

Not good, not good.

davejp wrote:

I got an email today from Canon Japan with an update on their
investigation into the 5D Mark II black spots.

-First they say that many others have reported the problem since I
reported it about 10 days ago.

-A firmware update is being prepared that should "mitigate" the
problem. They add a link to the Japanese EOS firmware update page as
to where to check for the update
http://cweb.canon.jp/drv-upd/eosd/farm.html . Nothing there yet.

The also suggest the following fix/workaround. This is exactly what
the mail recommends and this concerns me. I have never shot with High
ISO NR... will have to test to see how bad it looks:

Canon's instructions.

  • go to C. Fn II-2 "Image"

  • go to High ISO speed noise reduction

  • select 2:Strong

  • click set

Previously all my black spot shots used the High ISO NR setting of
0:Standard.

I will try to take some samples tonight and post later if I find
anything interesting. Worried that high ISO NR at strong would look
blotchy/clay-like. never tested it.

-- hide signature --

EOS 5D & 5D Mark II, and some lenses.
http://dave.jp

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Oak and Acorn
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,124
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Not really - Re: Ok, so Strong NR slightly reduces
In reply to davejp, Dec 15, 2008

All you've shown here is that you can "blur" the spots with noise removal, not eliminate them, not even "slightly" unfortunately.

davejp wrote:

Ok, so Strong NR slightly reduces the problem? Hopefully the firmware
update does better than this.

These are 300% crops at different high ISO NR settings. Very quick
shots on the way home, even worse I only had my 100mm lens with me
today.

-- hide signature --

EOS 5D & 5D Mark II, and some lenses.
http://dave.jp

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Taikonaut
Senior MemberPosts: 2,513
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Re: first firmware release can mitigate
In reply to davejp, Dec 15, 2008

davejp wrote:

harold1968 wrote:

that doesn't mean that this won't be final, or that a second firmware
fix might not get rid of it

I am not convinced this is a sensor issue for many reasons.

I am with you on that. I do think FW can fix this. And since the 5D
uses the same base sensor as the 1Ds III with only a different filter
and processing I believe, either firmware or a free filter change by
Canon should resolve this. Unless there is some other hardware change
I don't know about it.

5DMk2 is a different sensor to 1DsMk3 because resolution is diffferent.

We will waite if firmware actually fixes it. I think it will but depend on how Canon would want to tweak it.

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Oak and Acorn
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uh - Re: If it works like the long exposure NR, that would be good
In reply to Ludovic Monchat, Dec 15, 2008

Many photographers don't particular like using in-camera noise removal, for fear of losing to much detail. If Canon forces "Strong" noise removal on high ISO settings to handle the black spot issue, you' ll basically be throwing high ISO shots out the window.

The 5D line is known and loved for its ability to achieve high ISO, virtually noise free shots without all of the over-processing. I'd call this "fix" by Canon pretty lame if they merely incorporate a forced "Strong Noise Removal" fix for the problem.

Ludovic Monchat wrote:

This NR works very well and I never have had any complains regarding
this common feature.

My fear is that a stuck pixel is way smaller and easy to hide than a
buch of them...

-- hide signature --

Ludo from Paris
Tankers of tools, thimbles of talent
BestOf http://ludo.smugmug.com/gallery/1158249

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Taikonaut
Senior MemberPosts: 2,513
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Some people here are too fickle.
In reply to Oak and Acorn, Dec 15, 2008

I believe Canon was only suggesting an alternative temporary work around to the black spot issue when they mention about turning NR up to strong. If it was that simple don't you think a firmware would have been released 2 weeks ago?

No wonder Ken Rockwell has a go at some owners as video gamers still living with their parents!

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Ludovic Monchat
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I'm gonna save the today's firmware
In reply to Oak and Acorn, Dec 15, 2008

Hoping it will be possible and revert to the older if some kind of wierd solution is implemented inside the new version.

Ludo from Paris
Tankers of tools, thimbles of talent
BestOf http://ludo.smugmug.com/gallery/1158249

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