D90 Jello Pudding?

Started Sep 14, 2008 | Discussions
Wayne Bass
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D90 Jello Pudding?
Sep 14, 2008

I recommended the D90 to my girlfriend and after shooting some mountain bike footage, we were shocked at the footage.

This shot is a pretty good representation of the type for footage we got:
http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/r...t=DSC_0012.flv

We've been looking all over for explanations and the best we found was here:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=284906#post284906

Anyone know more about the D90 shutter problem?

Wayne
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Wayne Bass - Photographer/Cinematographer

cmvsm
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,714Gear list
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Re: D90 Jello Pudding?
In reply to Wayne Bass, Sep 14, 2008

Wayne Bass wrote:

I recommended the D90 to my girlfriend and after shooting some
mountain bike footage, we were shocked at the footage.

This shot is a pretty good representation of the type for footage we
got:
http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/r...t=DSC_0012.flv

We've been looking all over for explanations and the best we found
was here:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=284906#post284906

Anyone know more about the D90 shutter problem?

It's not an inherent 'problem' only to the D90. It is called a 'rolling shutter', and is a common occurrence with all CMOS based video cams. Even the highly acclaimed Canon HV20 and HV30 has it apparently. There really is no fix, but you can eliminate a lot of it via a tripod or VR lens. However, you'll still see it from time to time no matter what you use, its just an inherent drawback to the CMOS sensor. CCD sensors also have their own challenges as well, but do not elicit a rolling shutter issue. That is why many P&S cameras do not have this in their movie modes.

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Wayne Bass
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Re: D90 Jello Pudding?
In reply to Wayne Bass, Sep 14, 2008

The link broke originally. Here it is again:

http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/rr134/jamesmel9/?action=view¤t=DSC_0012.flv

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Wayne Bass - Photographer/Cinematographer

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Wayne Bass
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Re: D90 Jello Pudding?
In reply to cmvsm, Sep 14, 2008

I looks like some fast CMOS cameras don't have the problem. From what I gather, it's because the D90 is a very slow CMOS instead of a fast CMOS which is needed for higher quality video.

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cmvsm
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Re: D90 Jello Pudding?
In reply to Wayne Bass, Sep 14, 2008

The Canon HV30 is an $800 HD camcorder and is in the running for camcorder of the year 2008. It also has the rolling shutter issue. Again, the issue can be mostly resolved with a tripod and are rarely seen with distant shots.

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Wayne Bass
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Re: D90 Jello Pudding?
In reply to cmvsm, Sep 14, 2008

That makes sense. But I almost all my work handheld as there's never enough time or space to set up a tripod (action sports). I've shot with alot of different cameras and including the HV30, DVX, etc. and never seen it this bad. I think there is something more to it here. Is it because it's using the full frame that the rolling shutter is really slow?

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cmvsm
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Re: D90 Jello Pudding?
In reply to Wayne Bass, Sep 14, 2008

Take a look at this thread by Kholi. He goes through just about everything regarding the D90 video mode.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1034&message=29276491--

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markdavis
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Re: D90 Jello Pudding?
In reply to Wayne Bass, Sep 14, 2008

Wayne Bass wrote:

I looks like some fast CMOS cameras don't have the problem. From what
I gather, it's because the D90 is a very slow CMOS instead of a fast
CMOS which is needed for higher quality video.

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Wayne Bass - Photographer/Cinematographer

Cinematographer you say?

camcorders as a start don't use 12mp sensors. at most 3mp. 1 reason for lower rolling shutter.

second reason is that higher-end cmos camcorders use 3 cmos 1mp each, for RGB.
1mp is faster than 3mp, much faster than 12mp

but in the end you don't have any other film size camcorder on the market other than D90 and Red for under $20k.

maybe the next 5D will have video but at 2600 euro it's not exactly d90's competition

you can do many great things with film size video but not exactly the type you'd buy to record your birthday party. use your p&s video for that, you don't need dof anyway.

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dhean
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Re: D90 Jello Pudding?
In reply to markdavis, Sep 14, 2008

markdavis wrote:

Wayne Bass wrote:

I looks like some fast CMOS cameras don't have the problem. From what
I gather, it's because the D90 is a very slow CMOS instead of a fast
CMOS which is needed for higher quality video.

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Wayne Bass - Photographer/Cinematographer

Cinematographer you say?
camcorders as a start don't use 12mp sensors. at most 3mp. 1 reason
for lower rolling shutter.

second reason is that higher-end cmos camcorders use 3 cmos 1mp each,
for RGB.
1mp is faster than 3mp, much faster than 12mp

but in the end you don't have any other film size camcorder on the
market other than D90 and Red for under $20k.

maybe the next 5D will have video but at 2600 euro it's not exactly
d90's competition
you can do many great things with film size video but not exactly the
type you'd buy to record your birthday party. use your p&s video for
that, you don't need dof anyway.

I doubt the d90 uses all the 12MP for the 720p video since the number of pixels in 720p is a lot less than the total available 12MP.

The problem should be fixable through firmware update, but that's up to Nikon if they want to invest the time to do it.

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Wayne Bass
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Re: D90 Jello Pudding?
In reply to markdavis, Sep 14, 2008

markdavis wrote:

but in the end you don't have any other film size camcorder on the
market other than D90 and Red for under $20k.

I agree, but the D90 had so much potential for my work until we ran across the rolling shutter issue.

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adam3544
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Re: D90 Jello Pudding?
In reply to cmvsm, Sep 14, 2008

cmvsm wrote:

The Canon HV30 is an $800 HD camcorder and is in the running for
camcorder of the year 2008. It also has the rolling shutter issue.
Again, the issue can be mostly resolved with a tripod and are rarely
seen with distant shots.
--

I've Sony Handycam HDR-SR7E which is excellend HD camcorder.
The same problem of CMOS, but I've never paid attention to this issue.

Adam
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Michael Ma
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Re: D90 Jello Pudding?
In reply to Wayne Bass, Sep 16, 2008

I've been saying all along, the people buyin a D90 with the intent to regularly shoot video are in for a big surprise. This is laughably bad. VR will help when they are trying to hold it still, but when its panning, it will not help at all.

Wayne Bass wrote:

I recommended the D90 to my girlfriend and after shooting some
mountain bike footage, we were shocked at the footage.

This shot is a pretty good representation of the type for footage we
got:
http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/r...t=DSC_0012.flv

We've been looking all over for explanations and the best we found
was here:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=284906#post284906

Anyone know more about the D90 shutter problem?

Wayne
--
Wayne Bass - Photographer/Cinematographer

 Michael Ma's gear list:Michael Ma's gear list
Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-42mm F3.5-5.6 ASPH OIS
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cacophony
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incorrect
In reply to Michael Ma, Sep 16, 2008

Michael Ma wrote:

I've been saying all along, the people buyin a D90 with the intent to
regularly shoot video are in for a big surprise. This is laughably
bad. VR will help when they are trying to hold it still, but when
its panning, it will not help at all.

Yes, you've been incorrectly and ignorantly stating all along.

With good technique and some knowledge of how to properly shoot, the D90 is capable of incredible results, as proven by the videos being posted on vimeo:

http://vimeo.com/1721667
http://vimeo.com/1728924
http://vimeo.com/1720680
http://vimeo.com/1709082

With bad technique and no knowledge, like with anything, horrible results can be achieved.

Yes Michael, the D90 video function is so "laughably" bad it beats a $5000 camcorder in this comparison by somebody that owns both:
http://vimeo.com/1713382

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cmvsm
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Re: D90 Jello Pudding?
In reply to Michael Ma, Sep 16, 2008

Michael Ma wrote:

I've been saying all along, the people buyin a D90 with the intent to
regularly shoot video are in for a big surprise. This is laughably
bad. VR will help when they are trying to hold it still, but when
its panning, it will not help at all.

Ignoring the fact that you are trolling over from the Canon forum, I'll correct you since you don't actually own the camera. The 'wobble' only mostly occurs when you doing things that you shouldn't be doing with a video camera anyway. That being fast panning and zooming in to the extremes frequently. You are going to get excessive camera shake in these situations no matter what video camera you are using that is sub $1K, unless you are using a tripod.

So now that you know from someone who actually owns the camera, you can tell all of your friends in the Canon forum.

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Michael Ma
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Re: D90 Jello Pudding?
In reply to cmvsm, Sep 16, 2008

Oops, a Canon forum link brought me to this post. I didn't know it was in the Nikon forum before replying. Flame me all you want, as it is too late to delete my post. I won't read them anyway. I didn't even read what you wrote.

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Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-42mm F3.5-5.6 ASPH OIS
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dalen7
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Re: D90 Jello Pudding?
In reply to Wayne Bass, Sep 16, 2008

Believe that is the Rolling Shutter issue that has been discussed on the video forums.

There is a good explanation about what causes this, and is exclusive to the CMOS sensor and not CCD (if I got the order right...hehe)

Hopefully something can be worked out.

Peace

dAlen
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kodakuser
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Re: D90 Jello Pudding?
In reply to Michael Ma, Sep 16, 2008

This D90 video function interests me...more from the point of view of who it is aimed at, I dont quite get it, but I shall await to see what can be done with it, I have seen some samples that show what can be done with the control over DOF..pretty impressive
BUT....Talking of video...what do you guys make of this ??
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08091601casio_fh20.asp

can it possibly be any good ??...HD video at up to 1000FPS !!!, and a lens that goes 26mm-520mm equiv, bet it would make a decent pocket camcorder though, surely this is what Nikon are up against, and if the D90 doesnt cut it for pro work...then may as well get one of these ??

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PerL
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Re: D90 Jello Pudding?
In reply to kodakuser, Sep 16, 2008

kodakuser wrote:

This D90 video function interests me...more from the point of view of
who it is aimed at, I dont quite get it, but I shall await to see
what can be done with it, I have seen some samples that show what can
be done with the control over DOD..pretty impressive
BUT....Talking of video...what do you guys make of this ??
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08091601casio_fh20.asp

can it possibly be any good ??...HD video at up to 1000FPS !!!, and a
lens that goes 26mm-520mm equiv, bet it would make a decent pocket
camcorder though, surely this is what Nikon are up against, and if
the D90 doesnt cut it for pro work...then may as well get one of
these ??
--

The thing that excites high end videousers with the D90 is the shallow DOF that gives a cinematic look. The Casio has a much smaller sensor with huge DOF.
--
http://bonusphotography.wordpress.com/

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Illkane
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Re: D90 Jello Pudding?
In reply to cmvsm, Sep 16, 2008

Just to say that I thanks people like Kholi from dvxuser.net that try to get the best from the D90.

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lympus
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Re: D90 Jello Pudding?
In reply to kodakuser, Sep 16, 2008

1st the rolling shutter/judder issue is (as a friend and highly respected cinematographer said in testing yesterday) "as bad as it gets".

But, that's comparing it to the kinds of HD cameras that we shoot with professionally.

It hardly means that you can't get great looking footage with it. For instance, even shooting with the level of gear he does and given his assessment over the shutter issue, he follows with great praise for what the D90 CAN do when shot correctly.

Also there really is no way to blame it on blanket issues like the CMOS sensor.
Right now there is no independent way to match shutter speed to your shooting.

For instance anyone shooting 24p would normally (not always) shoot at 48 fps for reasonably smooth motion. If you can't accurately gauge shutter speed (which you can't) then you may be seeing the type of slow shutter issues in much of this really bad stuff that's inherent with any slow shutter motion on most any hugh end camera.

THere are a lot of opinions about this so far and most of them are either completely off the mark or just guesses by inexperienced users or assumptions by posters who either haven't shot with the D90 or don't understand shooting film/video at 24p

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