Fuji and Nikon to merge?

Started Jul 2, 2008 | Discussions
James M Hughes
Senior MemberPosts: 2,007
Like?
Fuji and Nikon to merge?
Jul 2, 2008

I went into my local camera shop today, and the manager there said he'd heard rumours of a possible merger betweeen Fuji and Nikon - a bit like the one between Konica and Minolta a few years back, though hopefully without the unhappy ending. Anyone know anything more about this?
J M Hughes

puddleduck
Senior MemberPosts: 2,513
Like?
Re: Fuji and Nikon to merge?
In reply to James M Hughes, Jul 2, 2008

Do you honestly believe that a manager of a store would know about this?

Think about what you are saying.

There is zero mileage in recycling stories from ill informed and bored store clerks.

No - it won't happen.

I don't mean to come across as terse, but you are recyclling a 3rd hand possible rumour. For two huge companies to even consider merging it requires regulatory approval, share holder agreement, and lots of other boring process. Mr J Bloggs from ACME Cameras will be the last to know. He probably read this from another "rumour" post on his coffee break.

Forget it.

-- hide signature --
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
bkj
bkj
Senior MemberPosts: 1,339
Like?
Re: Fujifilm selling the the camera division
In reply to puddleduck, Jul 2, 2008

I also think a merger of Nikon and Fujifilm won't ever happen.

However, Fujifilm might want to offload its camera division, which is bringing in less and less revenue over the years.

Nikon's CoolPix compacts are just not selling well. On the other hand, Canon has been leading in the compact market year after year. The purchase of Fujifilm's camera division might give the CoolPix line a much needed boost.

A similar deal had happened before:

"In 2005 Lenovo purchased IBM's PC Division which transformed it into a major international personal computer manufacturer. Lenovo paid $1.27 billion to IBM which consisted of $655 million in cash and $600 million in Lenovo stock. As a result of the acquisition, Lenovo gained the rights to the product lines as well as licensed trademarks such as ThinkVision, ThinkPad, ThinkVantage, ThinkCentre, Aptiva, and NetVista. As of May 1, 2005, IBM owned 19.9% of Lenovo."

-- hide signature --

Fujifilm S5 Pro, S3 Pro
Tokina AF 12-24/4.0
Tamron AF 28-75/2.8
Nikon AF 50/1.4D
Nikon AF 85/1.4D
Sigma AF 150/2.8 Macro

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
James M Hughes
Senior MemberPosts: 2,007
Like?
Re: Fuji and Nikon to merge?
In reply to puddleduck, Jul 2, 2008

puddleduck wrote:

Do you honestly believe that a manager of a store would know about this?

Why not? Sensitive information is leaked all the time. This particular guy often has advance information about new cameras and price changes. When new models are launched, camera dealers nearly always have adverts in magazines for said product. Given the lead times for printing magazines, this means they must have sensitive information weeks in advance.

Think about what you are saying.

Is the idea of these two companies merging or combining so far-fetched? If Konica and Minolta could combine, why not Fuji and Nikon?

There is zero mileage in recycling stories from ill informed and
bored store clerks.

Store clerks? How patronising! You clearly have a very low opinion of anyone unfortunate enough to work in a shop - nice!

No - it won't happen.

Maybe not. Never said it would. But - stranger things have happened.

I don't mean to come across as terse, but you are recyclling a 3rd
hand possible rumour.

Agreed - I heard what I heard and was curious to see if anyone knew any more. Unfortunately, in asking the question I am guilty of starting a - possibly unfounded - rumour.

For two huge companies to even consider merging
it requires regulatory approval, share holder agreement, and lots of
other boring process.

Agreed - but that's like talking about the logistics of two people getting married when they're still on their first date - the main thing is, they've started the process; the other stuff can come later.

Mr J Bloggs from ACME Cameras will be the last
to know. He probably read this from another "rumour" post on his
coffee break.

Sorry, but your opinion of 'store clerks' really stinks. Never judge a person by their job. Don't look down on people just because they work in a shop. I once knew a girl with a degree in music who worked in a sandwich bar. In my experience, many shop staffers are remakable human beings - they have to be to put up with the crass rudness of oh-so-superior customers.

Forget it.

Okay - but if it does happen, Andy, remember - you read it here first. (LOL!)

-- hide signature --

J M Hughes

PS I just saw on the front page of today's Star tabloid newspaper that former footballer Paul 'Gazza' Gascoigne and ex-wife Sheryl are thinking of getting remarried. Now, as mergers go, that's a bit like Canon and Nikon joining forces! So you see - the most unlikeliest of mergers is possible. (LOL!)

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Digitalux
Contributing MemberPosts: 821
Like?
Nessie is surfacing again ?
In reply to James M Hughes, Jul 2, 2008

Heard that rumour a couple of times over the last few years.

Unlikely, IMO

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
OldMaster
Senior MemberPosts: 1,813
Like?
Re: Nessie is surfacing again ?
In reply to Digitalux, Jul 2, 2008

To an extent they already are? They already share bodies and it is clear they have an arrangement..

The only thing Fuji could offer Nikon is technology, R&D and manufacturing potential....I suspect they keep relatively open minded as to how they can mutually benefit each other.

I do think it may be interesting to see how their present relationship will be reflected in the future?

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
bloomoose
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,215Gear list
Like?
Nothing official ...
In reply to James M Hughes, Jul 2, 2008

If Fuji is trying to sell their camera and/or sensor division, why should they not offer it to Nikon?

There were rumors of Fuji sensors in Nikon prototypes ... but let´s see what eventually will happen. There is a big gap between us dreaming at message boards and Japanese companies taking decisions
--
Greetings from Germany,
Pam

 bloomoose's gear list:bloomoose's gear list
Sigma DP2 Merrill Sony RX1 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-WX300 Nikon D600 Sony Alpha 7 +10 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Anastigmat
Forum ProPosts: 12,579
Like?
Re: Fujifilm selling the the camera division
In reply to bkj, Jul 2, 2008

bkj wrote:

I also think a merger of Nikon and Fujifilm won't ever happen.

Fujifilm is still making a lot of money from film. Not as much as it used to but film is still profitable.

However, Fujifilm might want to offload its camera division, which is
bringing in less and less revenue over the years.

Nikon's CoolPix compacts are just not selling well.

These cameras are not Nikon designs. They only carry the Nikon name. They would probably sell even more poorly if they do not have the Nikon name on them. Fuji currently has the most popular digital camera in Japan, the F31.

On the other
hand, Canon has been leading in the compact market year after year.

Canon compact digitals are well designed and among the best around. It is not a surprise.

The purchase of Fujifilm's camera division might give the CoolPix
line a much needed boost.

Or Nikon may simply dump its digital compacts and concentrate on DSLR cameras.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
zygh
Senior MemberPosts: 1,798Gear list
Like?
are we gettin bored here or what...
In reply to James M Hughes, Jul 2, 2008

anyway, its fun reading about something else than the d700 for a change...

so if fuji were to sell the camera division to nikon, what brand name would be used in the new line-up? would it be 'nikon'? then that would simply mean that fujifilm branded new cameras would disappear from the market. and how would that help nikon? massive advertising would not suffice, i would say. but let us indulge. so why exactly would nikon be interested in the fuji camera division? s-ccds? perhaps. but would that be enough to justify? anyway, so how big a business is nikon compared to fujifilm? i guess its way smaller, right? if that's the case, the issue would be as to why fuji would be interested in a merger with nikon and the reasons nikon might have to accept such a deal in a time when they are making trails in the digital slr market with huge revenues and high profitability. in a recent press release, nikon published gloomy sales predictions for their upcoming biz-year and said that they were working at getting a higher profitability margin out of their camera division. i'm not sure how that puts the two companies together. it's really hard to see it happening.

 zygh's gear list:zygh's gear list
Nikon D40 NEX5R Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G VR Sony E 18-55mm F3.5-5.6 OSS Sony E 16mm F2.8 Pancake +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
zygh
Senior MemberPosts: 1,798Gear list
Like?
Re: Fujifilm selling the the camera division
In reply to Anastigmat, Jul 2, 2008

Anastigmat wrote:

These cameras are not Nikon designs. They only carry the Nikon name.
They would probably sell even more poorly if they do not have the
Nikon name on them.

are you sure about that? i mean, the nikon coolpix line-up is pretty dull but it does have some well built models like the p5100 or whatbere its called. are you saying that's just rebranded stuff? i thought that most nikon coolpix sensors were sony but even canon buys from sony but that hardly qualifies to say that the canon entry compacts are rebranded stuff. what exactly did you mean?

Fuji currently has the most popular digital
camera in Japan, the F31.

is the f31 still selling in japan?

Or Nikon may simply dump its digital compacts and concentrate on DSLR
cameras.

thats a thought. but that would mean more snobbery from nikon dslr users

 zygh's gear list:zygh's gear list
Nikon D40 NEX5R Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G VR Sony E 18-55mm F3.5-5.6 OSS Sony E 16mm F2.8 Pancake +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
bkj
bkj
Senior MemberPosts: 1,339
Like?
Re: Fujifilm selling the the camera division
In reply to Anastigmat, Jul 3, 2008

Anastigmat wrote:

Fujifilm is still making a lot of money from film. Not as much as it
used to but film is still profitable.

Might you have any reference to this? But Fujifilm's global website does show that it's "imaging solutions" division is making less and less money over the past 3 years.

I know many stores are no longer carrying 35mm films. They still carry medium format and large format films however.

These cameras are not Nikon designs. They only carry the Nikon name.
They would probably sell even more poorly if they do not have the
Nikon name on them. Fuji currently has the most popular digital
camera in Japan, the F31.

Again, might you have any reference to this? The F31 is one of my favourite compacts. Too bad it is no longer on sale.

Or Nikon may simply dump its digital compacts and concentrate on DSLR
cameras.

No matter how small the profit margin is, there is always money to be made from the compact market.

Unfortunately, Nikon had pressed all the wrong buttons when it comes to the recent CoolPix cameras. For example, the P5100 could have been better selling if RAW mode was included. The rest of the CoolPix line up are all me-too products with nothing that stands out.

Cheers

-- hide signature --

Fujifilm S5 Pro, S3 Pro
Tokina AF 12-24/4.0
Tamron AF 28-75/2.8
Nikon AF 50/1.4D
Nikon AF 85/1.4D
Sigma AF 150/2.8 Macro

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
brunof1
New MemberPosts: 6
Like?
Re: Fujifilm selling the the camera division
In reply to bkj, Jul 3, 2008

Hi Folks,

Very interesting topic. Check this below, Thom Hogan comments about an announcement.....quote below of original post. Great way for Nikon to differentiate further from Canon & Sony (perhaps Sony is the real threat??)

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/message.asp?forum=1020&parent=27927891&thread=27903483 "e=1

Thom Hogan wrote:

Bernie Ess wrote:

Thom Hogan wrote:

  • Basically all the DSLR and MF stuff

  • Not likely to include much in the way of sensor tech

Ok, but what is the DSLR stuff minus sensor tech? It is basically
Nikon bodies. Actually nothing they could sell (except a few leftover
d200 bodies from the S5).

All will be clear if and when the announcement is made. There's more
involved than you think. I hesitate to say more at the moment because
you never quite know who you're outting when you reveal details.

-- hide signature --

Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (18 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
_SeaCam_
Regular MemberPosts: 129
Like?
Nikon has nothing to gain from Fuji
In reply to James M Hughes, Jul 3, 2008

that little bit DR is highly overated and the rest is Nikon anyway.
So why would Nikon waste any energy on that. Fujis SLR technology
is dead in the water.
regards
Garry

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Bernie Ess
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,911Gear list
Like?
This is....
In reply to _SeaCam_, Jul 3, 2008

SeaCam wrote:

that little bit DR is highly overated

This is a personal opinion. It may seem overrated to you, but together with better tonality and colour it is something I don't want to give up. I prefer the Fuji image look largely to Canon or Nikon. At least so far...

Bernie

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
dlbogdan
Regular MemberPosts: 123
Like?
Re: Nikon has nothing to gain from Fuji
In reply to _SeaCam_, Jul 3, 2008

overrated ? ( i would slap you good for this)

have you ever seen a fujifilm s5/s3 raw?

-- hide signature --

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
zygh
Senior MemberPosts: 1,798Gear list
Like?
Bogdan,
In reply to dlbogdan, Jul 3, 2008

No need to get physical here. It's very clear the guy has no idea about what he's talking about. OK, let's put DR aside. The Fuji tonality and color is damn near brilliant while Nikon's is not even close. If the guy thinks that can be worked around in PP, well, he's got another thing coming.

Anyway, statements like his show just the kind of grose ignorance that has made Fuji's dSLRs to be underestimated time and time again. How can you even get mad at that when this kind of attitude prevails in non-Fuji users. Just ignore it and pass on.
--
http://flickr.com/photos/zygh/show/
http://zygh.deviantart.com/gallery/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gearporn/
-equipment in profile-

 zygh's gear list:zygh's gear list
Nikon D40 NEX5R Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G VR Sony E 18-55mm F3.5-5.6 OSS Sony E 16mm F2.8 Pancake +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Thom Hogan
Forum ProPosts: 13,659
Like?
Re: Fuji and Nikon to merge?
In reply to James M Hughes, Jul 3, 2008

James M Hughes wrote:

rumours of a possible merger betweeen Fuji and Nikon - a
bit like the one between Konica and Minolta a few years back

Both Fujifilm Holdings and Nikon are diversified companies. Any "merger" or "division" sale between them would have to be considered in that light. Both are relatively healthy companies, but their growth comes in different areas.

Consider Fiscal 2008:

Fujifilm Holdings
1192b Document Solutions (office products, printers, etc.)
1108b Information Solutions (medical systems, graphic arts, materials)
547b Film, photofinishing, labs, and, yes digital imaging (164b)
Nikon
291b Precision equipment (semiconductor manufacturing equipment)
586b Imaging (digital cameras and lenses)
59b Instruments (medical and scientific equipment)

Nikon's imaging division is more than 3x the size, but more importantly:

Fujifilm imaging profit: -2.94b
Nikon imaging profit: +84b

So, to imagine any transfer between these companies, you have to imagine the combination it would produce. If Fujifilm acquired Nikon, it would essentially be buying Nikon Imaging to "fix" the Fujifilm imaging problem. That would be costly in more ways than one. First, it doesn't fix one of the problems in the Fujifilm imaging division: that they've been taking writedowns on the film side and that the growth there is highly negative to the point where it will soon be a trivial part of the overall company (contrary to Anastigmat's assertion, the film side of Fujifilm has been losing money, though it is cash flow positive). Moreover, such a transaction really only addresses 30% of 20% of Fujifilm (i.e. the 7% or so of Fujifilm that is digital imaging). Given Nikon's current results and trend, Fujifilm would have to pay a very large incentive on top of actual stock value to make such a grab. I don't think it can happen.

A more interesting play would be Nikon buying the digital imaging side of Fujifilm. First, it's probably affordable for Nikon and it would almost instantly give them "hotter" Coolpix models. But I doubt that will happen either. The Nikon board seems satisfied with their current approach.

-- hide signature --

Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (18 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
OldMaster
Senior MemberPosts: 1,813
Like?
Re: Nikon has nothing to gain from Fuji
In reply to _SeaCam_, Jul 3, 2008

Fuji technology dead in the water, eh!! Obviously not a Fuji user!!

No other camera, including the D3, offer 12 F stops of DR..and as a wedding pro for 24 years I can assure you that is a total selling point on it's own...the D3 manages around 9 stops..

And as a studio, portrait , graduations and school photographer..no other camera offers the Fuji colours either..two particularly strong selling points I would suggest?

Like many, I will probably invest in the D700 for the high iso performance and because most of my lenses, bar the 17/55 and 12/24 are FF Nikkors..but I will not relinquish my S5..(or S3's for that matter 'cos there is no point trying to sell them!!), because I very much doubt it can come close in tonality and warmth...those Fuji skin tones!!!

The ideal camera is obvious..a D700 with a Fuji FF super ccd with the same pixel density would give a 13.5 + 13.5..and I don't care how slow the buffer is as long as it is big enough that I don't actually have to stop work as I did every 2/3 frames with the S3's!!

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
SkipMatthews
Contributing MemberPosts: 669
Like?
Maybe Ideal and maybe not
In reply to OldMaster, Jul 3, 2008

The ideal camera is obvious..a D700 with a Fuji FF super ccd with the same pixel > density would give a 13.5 + 13.5..and I don't care how slow the buffer is as > long as it is big enough that I don't actually have to stop work as I did every 2/3 > frames with the S3's!!

Most probably an academic exercise at best but, my question, to all of the people wishing for the same thing, is, what would you gain from such a camera that you don't already have in the very much less expensive S5.

1. Resolution-yes but where and why do you need more than the S5 gives you

2. Faster response, that is really iffy because with a 12/12 sensor and the current Fuji approach to handling data, it would give you 100 MB files. Do you really want or need that?

3. Low light/High Iso performance -- With the much bigger array on-chip, noise is going to be a much bigger problem and reaching the level of the S5 would really be a stretch. I don't think they would be able to do it with the current cell design and I would expect ISO 800 would be the best they could do. Now, consider that you are giving up clean and very usable files from ISO 6400 from the D3 sensor.

In other words, I am questioning the need, specifically for wedding photography, for a 12/12 Fuji sensor D700 body camera. I think we already have what we need in the S5 and the D700 with the D3 sensor makes a perfect companion camera.

If you need resolution you use the D700, if you need DR you use the S5, if you need very low light without flash you use the D700 and other than the extremes, you really don't care which camera you use because both are more than equal to the task but, for most shots, the S5 is the camera of choice because the files it produces are essentially ready to go right out of the camera and it is rare that we need more resolution than the S5 delivers.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mark McCormick
Contributing MemberPosts: 747
Like?
Re: Nikon has nothing to gain from Fuji
In reply to OldMaster, Jul 4, 2008

OldMaster wrote:

No other camera, including the D3, offer 12 F stops of DR..and as a
wedding pro for 24 years I can assure you that is a total selling
point on it's own...the D3 manages around 9 stops..

From my own tests, I'd spot you 11 stops Fuji S3 and S5, 9.3 stops every one else (except maybe the medium format backs, but I can't afford one to test!). But that nearly extra two stops is so important in so much of the scenes I like to record, that I'm using an S3 and will stay there until Nikon or Canon come up with a sensor on their own that can handle the extra DR. Extra megapixels is no consolation. HDR? No. Layering multiple images together is a subset of good landscape photography and little more. Although HDR compositing has its place in digital photography, for all practical purposes, a photographer cannot capture a "decisive moment" with multiple images and compositing techniques. You have to have the DR in the single image capture. The D300,D3, D700 all have incredible mechanics and accept most of the lenses I already own, but an image with blown highlights is an image with blown highlights. I'll stick with my S3 until I've got a better option.

-- hide signature --
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads