Same Price: 30D / D80

Started Jan 27, 2007 | Discussions
curious_george
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Same Price: 30D / D80
Jan 27, 2007

Hi and thanks in advance for your advice. I am facing an extremely difficult choice - the Nikon D80 kit (18-135mm) and Canon 30D kit (18-55mm) are retailing at the SAME price where I come from. In most forums, the 30D is rated in a different class than the D80/400D/A100! As I am a beginner, what are the reasons to buy a 30D over the D80?

P.S. I am asking the same question from the opposite viewpoint in the Nikon forum!

curious_george
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Re: Same Price: 30D / D80
In reply to curious_george, Jan 27, 2007

curious_george wrote:

Hi and thanks in advance for your advice. I am facing an extremely
difficult choice - the Nikon D80 kit (18-135mm) and Canon 30D kit
(18-55mm) are retailing at the SAME price where I come from. In
most forums, the 30D is rated in a different class than the
D80/400D/A100! As I am a beginner, what are the reasons to buy a
30D over the D80?

P.S. I am asking the same question from the opposite viewpoint in
the Nikon forum!

I was asked why a beginner would not be looking at even cheaper alternatives. Hope the following helps put your advice in perspective!

I spent days poring over the specs (the side by side comparison feature on this site helped tremendously. THANKS)

My original comparison was purely between the D80 and the 400D, and I'd virtually settled on the D80. The info from the salesguy was that the 30D was a superior camera, at the same price, and the key points cited were the 5fps shooting rate, 1/8000 shutter speed AND availability of a range of affordable 'prosumer' lenses. It seems like Nikon lense range only from 'beginner' lenses designed for the D40/50, then a huge leap to very expensive 'Pro' lenses.

What I hope to attain from the illustrious readers here is some 'real-world' comparisons.

My motives for shooting range from taking better pictures of my extremely hyperactive kids (the reason for upgrading from a 'prosumer point and click') to taking serious photography lessons in a couple of months time, and I would like a camera that grows with these needs.

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Karl Gnter Wnsch
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Re: Same Price: 30D / D80
In reply to curious_george, Jan 27, 2007

curious_george wrote:

As I am a beginner, what are the reasons to buy a
30D over the D80?

Pro 30D:

  • faster series,

  • better low light/high ISO performance

  • larger dynamic range, esp above ISO 400

  • true mirror lock up (not just a placebo, much too short fixed 0.4 second shutter delay),

  • brighter (yet a tad smaller) viewfinder,

  • lenses in the Canon lineup less expensive or higher specced than equivalent Nikon ones (your wallet will be thankful in the long run),

  • more lenses with USM, IS, less restrictions in compatibility (D80 still doesn't meter with non-CPU lenses).

  • more speciality lenses available - if you need them several tilt&shift lenses and a 5:1 macro lens are at your disposal (the latter was my reason for choosing the Canon system).

  • sturdier construction (have seen detached bajonetts from D80's because it's not affixed to the metal subframe but to the plastic body)

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PhotoPhilDe
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Re: Same Price: 30D / D80
In reply to curious_george, Jan 27, 2007

Difficult choice indeed.
You may find other interresting advises in this previous thread also:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=21805630

Whatever the choice you'll make, try eventually to replace the kit lens by a better one.
Good luck, the 2 are great cameras.

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Claire Dupuis
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My story
In reply to PhotoPhilDe, Jan 27, 2007

Funny this dilemma because the D80 is the camera that made me run from Nikon to Canon, and the 30D the one that made me never regret that decision.

I was a long time Nikon user and loved eveyrthing about the D820 body. I just happened to hate its IQ. The high ISO performance was just not matching its otherwise excellent performance.
The 30D has stunning IQ and great low light performance.

If you want to go Nikon, buy the great D50. It's cheaper than the newer D80, and its sensor does VERY well, under all circumstances.

The hype is nice and attractive, but falling for it might leave you with a camera that your neighbors will envy, but that won't deliver the IQ you're after.

Good luck

Claire

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packy
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Re: My story
In reply to Claire Dupuis, Jan 28, 2007

Claire Dupuis wrote:

I was a long time Nikon user and loved eveyrthing about the D820
body. I just happened to hate its IQ. The high ISO performance was
just not matching its otherwise excellent performance.

Having a camera (D80) for a day hardly qualifies you for an informed opinion. And since you take no notice of proper testing methods from experienced pros reduces the credability of your opinion even more. If you gave the D80 a bit of a chance in learning it and posted your problems on the forum, you might have gotten results similar to even the reviewers and other happy users.

As for ISO performance.....here's a crop from 'imaging resource'. "High ISO on the D80 not matching it's performance", you say?...Well, it seems to be matching you 30D here quite nicely (thank you very much) in a controlled PROFESSIONAL test.

So who do we believe, Claire? Actual proper reviews and samples from the pros with the camera in their possession for weeks of testing, or that of an amateur with no posted samples and just your word after one day of use?

To answer the OP's question.....If both cams were the same price I would be more tempted towards the 30D for the 5fps than anything else between the two. IQ is NOT an issue. If anything it would be issues with some of the faulty 30Ds as you have experienced but failed to make the poster aware, that would cause me more concern...(see bottom).

The 30D has stunning IQ and great low light performance.
If you want to go Nikon, buy the great D50. It's cheaper than the
newer D80, and its sensor does VERY well, under all circumstances.
The hype is nice and attractive, but falling for it might leave you
with a camera that your neighbors will envy, but that won't deliver
the IQ you're after.

"D80 won't deliver the IQ that you're after?"..well in the review tests here, in the comment (a) below shows that the K10D is equal to the D80, and in comment (b) the K10 does slightly BETTER than the 30D, so that makes your statement that these cams won't deliver in IQ absolutly rubbish and of little credit.

And everytime time you will beat this drum with this opinion, I will contest it each time with proper facts from pro reviews and not a one day blunderous experience from an amateur like yourself.

And in comment (c) and in line with the imaging resource crops above, Phil reckons that there is no real difference in ISO1600 between K10D/D80 and your 30D. So with all the overwhelming facts one could conclude that you either got a bad copy of the D80, or that you hadn't a clue how to use after only one day in your possession....which the latter I be more inclined to believe.

(a) "Crop for crop the K10D actually delivers about the same amount of detail as the D80"

(b) "Shooting RAW and using the same conversion workflow we can see that the K10D does indeed manage to extract slightly more detail from the scene than the EOS 30D, however there's no huge leap in image resolution from eight to ten megapixels."

(c) "At ISO 1600 it's more difficult to pick a winner, levels of detail are similar however the Canon EOS 30D perhaps has cleaner shadow (dark) areas."

Also on an important note too and which you forget to mention to the original poster, is that your camera has been away for a substantial period of time sorting focusing problems out which other users have encountered too. The reviewers at 'imaging resource' encountered similar focusing problems too in their ISO 1600 and 3200 test shots:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E30D/FULLRES/E30DINI1600.HTM

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Karl Gnter Wnsch
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Re: My story
In reply to packy, Jan 28, 2007

packy wrote:

This image only demonstrates that while the 30D is inherently quite noise free the D80 is noise free because of quite strong (detail mushing) noise reduction - yet even with that applied the remaining noise is more objectionable in my opinion while the noise reduction artefacts (like the colour bleeding and loss of contrast) is destroying even this simple picture...
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Dave Lewis
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Re: Same Price: 30D / D80
In reply to curious_george, Jan 28, 2007

Right now the 30D is an old camera, destined to be replaced. The Rebel XTi is a much more recent and much more advanced camera, though many would scoff at considering it above the 30D because of its place in the market as an entry piece. I think the comparison between the D80 and the XTi is a more valid one. I would never buy the 30D now till I see what Canon will come with next month.

The D80 is a superb piece from what I've seen of it and the few images I've taken with it. I think you are correct on Nikon brand lenses, though. They are definitely more expensive than Canon. Canon definitely has a good range of medium priced lenses to chose from, especially primes. The 35mm 2.0, 50mm 1.4, 100mm 2.0 are wonderfully sharp and fast lenses. The 28-135 IS zoom is a great all around lens. The kit lens does a fine job getting you by on the short end. The very affordable 70-200 f4.0 L zoom is one of the sharpest medium tele zooms ever made, and with a Tamron 1.4 tele converter becomes a superbly sharp 280mm tele zoom. Accumulating a workable range of those lenses will cost you a lot less with Canon than with Nikon. Another consideration is that Nikon is apparently moving to totally in lens focusing motors and their latest offering the D40 will only autofocus with those lenses, so probably in the future old lenses requiring in camera focusing motors will no longer work with the new cameras. The D80 does have a focusing motor so it will work.

I personally think the D80 is a more attractive camera than the 30D. It has a better viewfinder and higher resolution and is perhaps a little smaller. If I were brand new and looking as you are looking I would be drawn pretty heavily to the Nikon in spite of the additional lens costs.
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noviceL4
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Re: Same Price: 30D / D80
In reply to Dave Lewis, Jan 28, 2007

Dave L brings up a good point, waiting untill the next line up before your purchase. But by comparrison the Canon 30d is inline with the Nikon d200 or should I say thats what I was lead to believe.

I just purchased the 30 D with a Canon 17-85MM is, camera bag, lens filter and also a 2gig 133X memory card for $1500.00 with a double coupon $230.00 I could not get near that price with a Nikon D200 or the D80.

One other consideration is the newer the product line the more money it will cost. The 30d when it came out I understand it disapointed alot of canon users for the little improvements it did. For me........ I believe I got one heck of a camera with the improvements for a good deal.

what scared me from the nikon was the.

1-cost
2-Lens cost

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Kiddpeat
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Are you a Nikon salesman?
In reply to packy, Jan 28, 2007

Your emotion would be more appropriate in the Nikon forum.

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zomgwtf
Regular MemberPosts: 485
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you're story
In reply to packy, Jan 28, 2007

Pro test, eh? Let's see Phil's tests:

Dynamic range:
ISO 100: Nikon 8 EV, Canon 8.4
ISO 400: Nikon 7.9, Canon 8.4
ISO 1600: Nikon 7.8, Canon 8
ISO 3200: Nikon 6.1, Canon 7.3!!! more then a full stop!

Nikon review conclusions - cons:
"High sensitivity (ISO) noise levels higher than Canon EOS 400D"
30D has no worse noise performance as 400D (if not better).

Just to mention 2 things that directly influence the picture.
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Opinions and suggestions are always welcome.

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Fox123
Regular MemberPosts: 287
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Re: Same Price: 30D / D80
In reply to curious_george, Jan 28, 2007

curious_george wrote:

curious_george wrote:

Hi and thanks in advance for your advice. I am facing an extremely
difficult choice - the Nikon D80 kit (18-135mm) and Canon 30D kit
(18-55mm) are retailing at the SAME price where I come from. In
most forums, the 30D is rated in a different class than the
D80/400D/A100! As I am a beginner, what are the reasons to buy a
30D over the D80?

P.S. I am asking the same question from the opposite viewpoint in
the Nikon forum!

I was asked why a beginner would not be looking at even cheaper
alternatives. Hope the following helps put your advice in
perspective!

I spent days poring over the specs (the side by side comparison
feature on this site helped tremendously. THANKS)

My original comparison was purely between the D80 and the 400D, and
I'd virtually settled on the D80. The info from the salesguy was
that the 30D was a superior camera, at the same price, and the key
points cited were the 5fps shooting rate, 1/8000 shutter speed AND
availability of a range of affordable 'prosumer' lenses. It seems
like Nikon lense range only from 'beginner' lenses designed for the
D40/50, then a huge leap to very expensive 'Pro' lenses.

What I hope to attain from the illustrious readers here is some
'real-world' comparisons.

My motives for shooting range from taking better pictures of my
extremely hyperactive kids (the reason for upgrading from a
'prosumer point and click') to taking serious photography lessons
in a couple of months time, and I would like a camera that grows
with these needs.

Here is a break down the the lens choices. They are from C & N's websites.
According to thier websites Canon has:
62 total AF lenses
29 of those zooms
33 of those single focal legth
16 of those IS lenses
48 of those USM lenses

Nikon has:
46 AF lenses
22 of those zooms
24 of those single focal legth
8 of those VR lenses
22 of those AF-S lenses

Canon has a much better lens selection to chose from.

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Damkader
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Re: Same Price: 30D / D80
In reply to curious_george, Jan 28, 2007

I started off shooting digital 3 years ago with a 300D and enjoyed the camera. To be honest if Nikon had at $1000 DSLR at the time I might have gotten that instead.

I had the same problems as you as the shutter latency problem with p&s cameras were really annoying and caused me to lose a lot of shots.

But I pretty much used the camera as I would have used a p&s and let the camera pretty much make all of the decisions for me. When I upgraded to the 30D and started taking photo classes at my local community college so that I could learn more about photography I think the rear dial for quicker adjustment without having to take my eye off of the rear view finder was a gigantic bonus.

As for Nikon I have never shot a digital SLR Nikon so I can't comment on them, but I will tell you that I have taken lot of indoor pictures of my kids running around the house and to get the shutter speeds that I want I typically have to shoot at ISO 1600 to freeze the action. From what I have seen in the sample of Nikon pictures the noise would be too much for me. I know you can get good clean pictures with a little PP but I would much rather save that time to PP pictures that I really special to me or play with the wife and kids more.

For those of you that say he should wait till the next camera comes out I humbly disagree. Those are moments that you can't get back. And for me at least the memories are more important than the extra money. Now if he already had a dslr I would say wait if you are not happy with the current specs.
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pdqgp
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Re: Same Price: 30D / D80
In reply to curious_george, Jan 28, 2007

not knowing much about the D80 I can only say, line up on the old Ben Franklin T chart the two cameras and your needs and desires. both are fine and have ups and downs but it's the user that really makes both shine.

I have seen the D50 and while it's not as functional, the images even at High ISO were fantastic. My friend has it with a pretty basic lens and still couldn't be happier. Especially for the cost.

Good luck and work hard at which ever you choose.

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ellover009
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Re: Same Price: 30D / D80
In reply to pdqgp, Jan 28, 2007

I think that they are both wonderful cameras, I love the D80s slightly larger viewfinder, but the 30D is stupidly fast, I would look at two options, wait out till they replace the 30D since it was only a marginal improvement over the 20D, or buy the D80. Things that the D80 has over the 30D is viewfinder (I use glasses), being able to turn edit pictures from within the camera, have a raw you can create the same picture in jpeg without using a pc. 30D advantage is more lens, faster speed, better build, slightly better ISO.

There are some small issues out of the factory and only a few units are affected, 30D includes free dust from factory, green tint on lcd screen. D80 includes hot pixels and with some of them have the metering a little off.

30D is a sweet camera, just wish it was a little more updated, I would like to see at least the viewfinder as large as the D80, bigger battery, add 10mp (I know there's not much difference between 8 and 10 but it's 2007, maybe a night mode with higher ISO, and fix the dust problem, my friend went from a xt to a 30D and he noticed much higher dust build up even when he didn't swap the lens as much. My biggest thing is the viewfinder on the D80, I wear glasses so any improvement on where you can compose the picture it's a plus.

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ellover009
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Re: Same Price: 30D / D80
In reply to ellover009, Jan 28, 2007

One thing, if you get the 30D don't get the kit, put the money towards a better lens. and get a flash, and don't forget the 50mm prime, it's aggressively priced.

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Karl Gnter Wnsch
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Re: Same Price: 30D / D80
In reply to ellover009, Jan 28, 2007

ellover009 wrote:

My biggest thing is the viewfinder on the D80, I
wear glasses so any improvement on where you can compose the
picture it's a plus.

I wear glasses too and the D80 viewfinder is
a) less bright

b) too large to comfortably overview the image without forcefully turning my glasses into contact lenses...

I have the same beef (too large viewfinder) with the 1D MkII and would need the optional exepiece extender (I think it's the EP-EX15) for them to work for me...

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Ken.
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Re: Same Price: 30D / D80
In reply to ellover009, Jan 28, 2007

ellover009 wrote:

Things that the D80 has over the 30D is viewfinder (I use glasses),
being able to turn edit pictures from within the camera, have a raw
you can create the same picture in jpeg without using a pc.

There is an option to save a raw and a jpeg at the same time on the 30d.

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packy
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Re: Are you a Nikon salesman?
In reply to Kiddpeat, Jan 28, 2007

Kiddpeat wrote:

Your emotion would be more appropriate in the Nikon forum.

I post where I want, so you can keep your suggestions to yourself please. And I own a Canon 400D and have owned a 20D in the past and have debated pros for those cams too...that dosen't make me a Canon salesman either.
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packy
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Re: My story
In reply to Karl Gnter Wnsch, Jan 28, 2007

Karl Günter Wünsch wrote:

packy wrote:

This image only demonstrates that while the 30D is inherently quite
noise free the D80 is noise free because of quite strong (detail
mushing) noise reduction - yet even with that applied the remaining
noise is more objectionable in my opinion while the noise reduction
artefacts (like the colour bleeding and loss of contrast) is
destroying even this simple picture...

Yep your 100% right on. It sticks out like a sore thumb.

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