All my links to my photos have vanished! HELP!!!!

Started Jun 23, 2006 | Discussions
Phil Askey
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Re: Phil is 100% correct to do this....
In reply to Jay Turberville, Jun 24, 2006

Quite similar to a pyramid scheme actually.

Jay Turberville wrote:

It's sad to think that so many people are that desperate for a $5
credit.

$10 credit toward membership fees. $5 goes to the referred "friend".

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Phil Askey
Editor / Owner, dpreview.com

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BobTrips
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Ken and Jay...
In reply to Ken_5D, Jun 24, 2006

I don't think the two of you are operating from the same base of information.

There was at least one thread started early in this brouhaha that was erased. Statements were made in that thread that are no longer 'operational'. Some of the information posted in that thread put a different spin on history as it now exists.

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bob

The Blind Pig Guild
A photo/travel club looking for members
http://www.jeber.com/Clubs/Blind-Pig/

Flowers of Asia
A photo club for appreciators of Asian flowers - looking for members
http://www.jeber.com/Clubs/Flowers-of--Asia/

Travel Galleries
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips

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BobTrips
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Leaving me with questions...
In reply to Kevin Coppalotti, Jun 24, 2006

Kevin Coppalotti wrote:

I just checked the forum rules, they have been updated since I last
looked:

"Commercial advertising - Commercial website linking or advertising
is not allowed, if you wish to advertise on the site contact us.
This rule includes webmasters of other digital photography websites
promoting themselves on the forum. You will be banned and have all
of your messages removed.

Does this mean that a website owner cannot participate in discussions on this site and have a link to his/her personal gallery included in either message or signature? Or does the advertising ban stop a bit short of this point?

Promotional / discount codes - We do not allow the use of
promotional codes or discount codes in messages, users signatures
or plans. This is simply to avoid putting our members in a position
of inadvertently advertising on behalf of a commercial company and
falling foul of our commercial advertising rule. It's for the good
of all members, so please don't do it. "

Does this mean that people cannot post a message to the effect that there's a great price on a piece of gear somewhere if you use " code xxxxx"?

Does it mean that one could place the code elsewhere on the web and link to that site?

In addition there is plenty of sneaky stealth marketing and
individuals trolling as diehard users trying to promote a a
variety of products. This site is an advertisers dream come true.

Problem is, how do you tell the difference between sneaky advertisers and fan-boys?

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bob

The Blind Pig Guild
A photo/travel club looking for members
http://www.jeber.com/Clubs/Blind-Pig/

Flowers of Asia
A photo club for appreciators of Asian flowers - looking for members
http://www.jeber.com/Clubs/Flowers-of--Asia/

Travel Galleries
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips

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Kevin Coppalotti
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Re: Leaving me with questions...
In reply to BobTrips, Jun 24, 2006

Problem is, how do you tell the difference between sneaky advertisers and fan-boys?

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bob

Honestly Bob, no one can tell the difference for sure, Phil would probably have to delete 90% of all discussions to strictly conform with the stated rules. And that is the root of the problem, its a case of 'buyer beware' , 'read between the lines' and having a very 'healthy scepticism' on everything you read here.

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Kevin Coppalotti
http://razorsharp.smugmug.com

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Jay Turberville
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Re: Ken and Jay...
In reply to BobTrips, Jun 24, 2006

I don't think the two of you are operating from the same base of
information.
There was at least one thread started early in this brouhaha that
was erased. Statements were made in that thread that are no longer
'operational'. Some of the information posted in that thread put a
different spin on history as it now exists.

Could be. But I've been specific and I'm certainly open to facts to the contrary of what I understand them to be.

About the only factual thing I see much room for movement on is the notion of what is or is not a threat or what could reasonably be interpretted as a threat. Other than this issue and the wonderments of reflected sunlight, I think Ken and I are pretty much on the same page at this time as far as the facts go.

The spin, personality and motivation issues are certainly a whole 'nuther can-o-worms which I consider best left alone.

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Jay Turberville
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Re: Phil is 100% correct to do this....
In reply to Phil Askey, Jun 24, 2006

Quite similar to a pyramid scheme actually.

Not really. This is just a referral program for real goods and services.

It doesn't have any levels. There are real goods and services involved. And the compensation is limited to a fair degree by the fact that the compensation for referrals is only in membership discounts which limits its value.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme

I agree that it is a form of viral marketing, but I can't see much correclation to a pyramid scheme.

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Theresa K
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On Pyramid schemes....
In reply to Jay Turberville, Jun 25, 2006

there are levels and the people at the top benefit financially by sales from the people at the bottom. In this day and age, they are referred to as 'mulit-level marketing' (as if giving it a new name will make it respectable).

Smugmug's referral system is, by comparison, pretty harmless. Nobody but Smugmug loses money from it and in the long run they benefit by having more users.

I manage the web page for our local high school instrumental music department. I take lots of photos for the site and it gives me something to do while chaperoning. Parents used to see my photos on the band web site and ask me for copies. I was spending a small fortune without reimbursement until I set up my smugmug site. Smugmug's user referral system has allowed me to keep my site running without cost to myself as a courtesy for other parents.
--
Theresa K

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Jay Turberville
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Re: On Pyramid schemes....
In reply to Theresa K, Jun 25, 2006

there are levels and the people at the top benefit financially by
sales from the people at the bottom. In this day and age, they are
referred to as 'mulit-level marketing' (as if giving it a new name
will make it respectable).

Well multi-level marketing isn't really a pyramid scheme either. The link I posted made the distinctions. Legit MLMs sell large amounts of real goods to end users.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme

Smugmug's referral system is, by comparison, pretty harmless.
Nobody but Smugmug loses money from it and in the long run they
benefit by having more users.

I agree. It is pretty mild. But it is still a form of viral marketing (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). I understand why DPReview doesn't want coupon codes in signatures though. That desire seems reasonable to me.

I do find it interesting that SmugMug says the codes are so that you don't have to give out your email address to referals. OTOH, SmugMug says that the program is so that you can refer "friends". I see a bit of double speak here. Why would giving your email address to a "friend" be a problem? My interpretaion is that the use of the term "friends" is just marketing BS and that SmugMug very much wants the promotion of the codes via the referral process to spread beyond just "friends". That doesn't make SmugMug particularly "bad". But it does mean they are engaging in pretty typical marketing double-speak.

I manage the web page for our local high school instrumental music
department. I take lots of photos for the site and it gives me
something to do while chaperoning. Parents used to see my photos
on the band web site and ask me for copies. I was spending a small
fortune without reimbursement until I set up my smugmug site.

I take photos at our local table tennis tournaments. I'm thinking of getting a SmugMug or similar account for the same purpose. I need to look into it further.

Smugmug's user referral system has allowed me to keep my site
running without cost to myself as a courtesy for other parents.

Yes. The SmugMug referral system looks like basically good marketing to me. But DPReview users should respect the rules at DPReview also. That, after all, is what precipitated the problem to begin with.

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10past10
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I'm So Sick of Hearing About...
In reply to macwrite, Jun 26, 2006

Smugmug and Pbase. Y'all talk like these are the only two places to host your pics on the internet. Monkey see, monkey do. Over and over, again. I don't even bother clicking on links to these sites anymore. Tiresome. Ruins the forums, sometimes.

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Mojo151
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Re: Question for Phil on the 'codes' issue....
In reply to Theresa K, Jun 26, 2006

Duh!

If you read the responses from Mr. Phil Askey you will not that it is OK to write that you use a photo site and that you like it, but promotional codes are a big no, no. Ethics 101.

Theresa K wrote:

Phil Askey wrote:

Don has amended his 'codes' page and we will be (attempting to)
block the posting of promotional codes in signatures, we'll be
contacting anyone who uses them and will (respectfully) ask them to
remove them (which we have done on a good dozen occasions in the
past).

Can we still put them in a message when people are asking about
which sites we prefer? I don't put my code in my signature but
when people ask, I have shared it in the message and gotten many
new user referrals as a result. I would hate to see that
eliminated.
--
Theresa K

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Rick

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Thomas Comerford
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Re: On Pyramid schemes....
In reply to Theresa K, Jun 26, 2006

Theresa K wrote:

there are levels and the people at the top benefit financially by
sales from the people at the bottom. In this day and age, they are
referred to as 'mulit-level marketing' (as if giving it a new name
will make it respectable).

They didn't give it a new name. MLM is actually a different thing, but some illegal schemes call themselves MLM, and now it has a bad name as a result. I've dealt (indirectly) with MLM schemes in the past that were completely ethical, but they always suffered at the hands of people who fail to try and distinguish between legal and illegal practices. I think the concept itself is intriguing and has great potential if people would only make an effort to educate themselves, instead of tarring all of them with the same brush.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-level_marketing

Smugmug's referral system is, by comparison, pretty harmless.
Nobody but Smugmug loses money from it and in the long run they
benefit by having more users.

I manage the web page for our local high school instrumental music
department. I take lots of photos for the site and it gives me
something to do while chaperoning. Parents used to see my photos
on the band web site and ask me for copies. I was spending a small
fortune without reimbursement until I set up my smugmug site.
Smugmug's user referral system has allowed me to keep my site
running without cost to myself as a courtesy for other parents.
--
Theresa K

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HawkeyeLonewolf
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Just a little common sense on the subject...
In reply to macwrite, Jun 26, 2006
  1. 1 - Phil owns this site and can make whatever rules he likes for his site.

  1. 2 - Coupon codes are NOT unprofessional and in signatures should not be offensive to anyone with a grip on reality. You may not like them, but offensive, they are not. That said, see rule #1.

  1. 3 - Phil should not have just banned any accounts with smugmug coupon codes. I was away for several weeks and had such a code (unoffensive) in my sig file. I'd have been upset if a sudden rule change caused me to be punished. I posted a few messages today, my sig included, and someone shared with me the new rule. I IMMEDIATELY removed the links from my signature file. Problem solved. I even reported myself to Phil to avoid any hint of deliberate impropriety. I did this because of rule #1.

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Kevin L. Kitchens
'Know me through my lens...'
See my work at: http://peiklk.smugmug.com/

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Phil Askey
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Re: Just a little common sense on the subject...
In reply to HawkeyeLonewolf, Jun 26, 2006

Phil didn't ban anyone.

HawkeyeLonewolf wrote:

  1. 3 - Phil should not have just banned any accounts with smugmug

coupon codes. I was away for several weeks and had such a code
(unoffensive) in my sig file. I'd have been upset if a sudden rule
change caused me to be punished. I posted a few messages today, my
sig included, and someone shared with me the new rule. I
IMMEDIATELY removed the links from my signature file. Problem
solved. I even reported myself to Phil to avoid any hint of
deliberate impropriety. I did this because of rule #1.

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Kevin L. Kitchens
'Know me through my lens...'
See my work at: http://peiklk.smugmug.com/
-----

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HawkeyeLonewolf
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Re: Just a little common sense on the subject...
In reply to Phil Askey, Jun 26, 2006

Sorry, forgot my tenses

I know you didn't do it (thanks). Someone in this thread was suggesting that you should have just done it without a word to anyone.

Phil Askey wrote:
Phil didn't ban anyone.

HawkeyeLonewolf wrote:

  1. 3 - Phil should not have just banned any accounts with smugmug

coupon codes. I was away for several weeks and had such a code
(unoffensive) in my sig file. I'd have been upset if a sudden rule
change caused me to be punished. I posted a few messages today, my
sig included, and someone shared with me the new rule. I
IMMEDIATELY removed the links from my signature file. Problem
solved. I even reported myself to Phil to avoid any hint of
deliberate impropriety. I did this because of rule #1.

-- hide signature --

Kevin L. Kitchens
'Know me through my lens...'
See my work at: http://peiklk.smugmug.com/
-----

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Kevin L. Kitchens
'Know me through my lens...'
See my work at: http://peiklk.smugmug.com/

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Phil Askey
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Re: Just a little common sense on the subject...
In reply to HawkeyeLonewolf, Jun 26, 2006

I made it very clear from the beginning that the problem here was not with our members but with the Smugmug promotion 'system' and that's why I contacted them rather than banning anyone.

So before anyone goes around claiming I'm satan himself they should (all) get their facts straight.

(not directly specifically at you).

HawkeyeLonewolf wrote:
Sorry, forgot my tenses

I know you didn't do it (thanks). Someone in this thread was
suggesting that you should have just done it without a word to
anyone.

Phil Askey wrote:
Phil didn't ban anyone.

HawkeyeLonewolf wrote:

  1. 3 - Phil should not have just banned any accounts with smugmug

coupon codes. I was away for several weeks and had such a code
(unoffensive) in my sig file. I'd have been upset if a sudden rule
change caused me to be punished. I posted a few messages today, my
sig included, and someone shared with me the new rule. I
IMMEDIATELY removed the links from my signature file. Problem
solved. I even reported myself to Phil to avoid any hint of
deliberate impropriety. I did this because of rule #1.

-- hide signature --

Kevin L. Kitchens
'Know me through my lens...'
See my work at: http://peiklk.smugmug.com/
-----

-- hide signature --

Kevin L. Kitchens
'Know me through my lens...'
See my work at: http://peiklk.smugmug.com/
-----

 Phil Askey's gear list:Phil Askey's gear list
Leica M8 Leica M9 Olympus OM-D E-M5 Canon EOS 5D Mark III Fujifilm X-T1 +11 more
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Phil Askey
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Re: Just a little common sense on the subject...
In reply to Phil Askey, Jun 26, 2006

And for anyone who missed the 'prime' examples of the problem, have a look at this message:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=18953347

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Ken_5D
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Re: Smugmug was never the problem, users were
In reply to Phil Askey, Jun 26, 2006

Phil Askey wrote:

I made it very clear from the beginning that the problem here was
not with our members but with the Smugmug promotion 'system' and
that's why I contacted them rather than banning anyone.

That is an interesting stand. One that others early claimed you were not taking. One that to me seems totally mis-directed.

Which of the referenced links were posted by Smugmug staff?

None that I am aware of... (any that did should be banned)

Which were posted by your regsistered users?

ALL OF THEM

Your problem, and in the end the solution, was with the users who agreed to your rules when they signed up and especially in the case of signatures totally decided to ignore the rules.

I am paying for a pro-level site over there, I have been aware of the referal code system since I began. I haven't once used it, here or anywhere. But I will, if asked reccomend smugmug. The choice to do this is with me the user, not Don/smugmug the provider.

It really isn't your place to tell, suggest, etc how another site does business as long as THEY don't place links you your site, and they don't tell people directly to place them on dpreview.

What if smugmug said "Hey Phil, we are are wasting a lot of bandwidth with images linked to your site that don't show the links, could you caption all the shared images with the link so people can see more easily where they are hosted? Or we might just have to stop allowing links to DPReview."

That would be totally outragious. You run your site the way you see fit, and I know you seemed put off when I once suggested I wouldn't mind if you put more ads, because I wanted you to make more money. So how do you think Don feels when he has you telling him how to run his buisness, especially when the problem is with registered users of your site.

In the end the solution you all reached sounds perfect, but the idea that you think this was a smugmug problem, not a user problem makes no sense to me.

And I do apologize for the posts I made based on my poor reading of your and Don's postings on the issue. That was me being out of line.

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Ken
I take photos, I am a photographer.
KM FIVE D

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Jay Turberville
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Re: Smugmug was never the problem, users were
In reply to Ken_5D, Jun 26, 2006

Which of the referenced links were posted by Smugmug staff?

None that I am aware of... (any that did should be banned)

Which were posted by your regsistered users?

ALL OF THEM

Your problem, and in the end the solution, was with the users who
agreed to your rules when they signed up and especially in the case
of signatures totally decided to ignore the rules.

Face it. The majority of people that join a forum do not fully inform themselves of the rules. We can agree that they should, but we all know that the vast majority give a superficial look at best.

I see the problem as two-fold and caused by DPReview Users and the SmugMug promotional system which postures as a way to refer your "friends", but is clearly structured to help and encourage you to go beyond just referring "friends". The stated reason that they give you a code is so that you can keep your email anonymous. Giving your email to a friend shouldn't generally be a problem. There isn't much of a need for codes in a true friend referal scheme.

The choice
to do this is with me the user, not Don/smugmug the provider.

Absolutely true. But SmugMug certainly encourages you to pass your code around. It even allows you to ciruclate it without any obvious connection to who the code belongs to. You'd have to get that info from SmugMug somehow.

It really isn't your place to tell, suggest, etc how another site
does business as long as THEY don't place links you your site, and
they don't tell people directly to place them on dpreview.

I don't think Phil ever told or even suggested how they should do business. Maybe I missed a post, but I just don't recall it. He certainly expressed his opinion about their marketing scheme - and I only partially agree with some of Phil's assessments. And personally, I think suggestions are fine - especially if someone else's practices affect your business.

What if smugmug said "Hey Phil, we are are wasting a lot of
bandwidth with images linked to your site that don't show the
links, could you caption all the shared images with the link so
people can see more easily where they are hosted? Or we might just
have to stop allowing links to DPReview."

If it were me, I'd point out that link info is a "right click" away to those that want it and I'd further point out that SmugMug would probably be disappointing its users if it limited the linking I think that would fix the problem quickly.

That would be totally outragious. You run your site the way you
see fit, and I know you seemed put off when I once suggested I
wouldn't mind if you put more ads, because I wanted you to make
more money. So how do you think Don feels when he has you telling
him how to run his buisness, especially when the problem is with
registered users of your site.

Where did Phil tell SmugMug how to run their business? Maybe I missed it. But I'm betting you just have it wrong again.

In the end the solution you all reached sounds perfect, but the
idea that you think this was a smugmug problem, not a user problem
makes no sense to me.

I half agree. The problem has two sources. I agree that ultimately the problem rests on the shoulders of the DPreview users who posted coupon codes in their signatures. But to ignore the contributory influence of the SmugMug system is to make the same mistake Phil made in his recent comments when he acted as if the problem was all in SmugMug's lap and not also a problem with some DPReview users.

And I do apologize for the posts I made based on my poor reading of
your and Don's postings on the issue. That was me being out of line.

Find the quote where Phil told Don how to run SmugMug or you may find yourself needing to apologize yet again.

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Ken_5D
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Re: Smugmug was never the problem, users were
In reply to Jay Turberville, Jun 26, 2006

Jay Turberville wrote:

Find the quote where Phil told Don how to run SmugMug or you may
find yourself needing to apologize yet again.

I think we are mostly in agreement.

However, Phil wrote just 3-4 posts back on this thread...

I made it very clear from the beginning that the problem here was not
with our members but with the Smugmug promotion 'system' and that's
why I contacted them rather than banning anyone.

Which is the only reason I posted to this discussion again. The smugmug system is a promotional system, with incentive. Which on many sites would be fine, Phil has a different set of rules. Which means it is Phil's and Phil's user's problem not Smugmug's. I have no problem with Phils rules, this is not a criticism or questioning of them at all!!! I like the site.. it is excellent.

I was suprised to see Phil say he only had issue with Smugmug not the users. So he conacted them. This seems misdirected to me. I have to assume he contcted them with some intent to create change even if he really didn't intend any "threats" as some of us once thought.

All I am saying is the responsbilbity lies with the users than the other site's marketing system as long as they don't directly target Phil's site. Phil's post seems to be saying the opposite.

Phil wanted it to stop. He clearly says above HE decided smugmug was the problem, not the people who chose to place the links. He contacted them, not the users. I think this is pretty clear, that he was trying to tell them how to run thier business at some level.

Since Phil has stated that the email he used to conact them was not what he would intend now in wording, I will not reference any part of it. I think his post today makes his assumptions clear.

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Ken
I take photos, I am a photographer.
KM FIVE D

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HawkeyeLonewolf
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Re: Question for Phil on the 'codes' issue....
In reply to Mojo151, Jun 26, 2006

Mojo151 wrote:

Duh!

If you read the responses from Mr. Phil Askey you will not that it
is OK to write that you use a photo site and that you like it, but
promotional codes are a big no, no. Ethics 101.

There is not "ethical" or unethical about post a promo code. At all. There is NOW a stated rule about it and we should all honor it or leave this site.

Otherwise, there was absolutely nothing wrong with it.

The whining some people do. Jeepers!

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Kevin L. Kitchens
'Know me through my lens...'
See my work at: http://peiklk.smugmug.com/

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