Corel painter portraits

Started Feb 16, 2006 | Discussions
panoramaone
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Corel painter portraits
Feb 16, 2006

Hi there:

I am looking for good tutorials on using corel painter to make painterly portraits from original photographic portraits. Can someone guide me in the right direction?

Thanks,

Darcy

dannyraphael
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Re: Corel painter portraits
In reply to panoramaone, Feb 16, 2006

panoramaone wrote:

Hi there:

I am looking for good tutorials on using corel painter to make
painterly portraits from original photographic portraits. Can
someone guide me in the right direction?

The best I've seen are the Painter IX Simplified for Photographers (DVDs) by Jeremy Sutton...

http://www.paintercreativity.com/

Not cheap, but excellent content and very high quality production.

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Nancy Z.
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Re: Corel painter portraits
In reply to panoramaone, Feb 16, 2006

Hi Darcy,

I found that the DVD that Helen Yancy has on Virtual Oil Painting as well as a CD on Virtual Painting - Watercolors are excellent. Not only does she go into detail on painting on the photos but she also gives you details on how she enhances the faces in Photoshop prior to completing in Painter. Her web site is http://www.helenyancystudio.com and even though her CD and DVD are not cheap they really go in great detail on how she does her paintings.

Nancy Z

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carrie
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Re: Corel painter portraits
In reply to panoramaone, Feb 16, 2006
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dannyraphael
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DVD advantages - my .02
In reply to carrie, Feb 16, 2006

carrie wrote:

This will get you started...
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1006&message=17171401

This is a GREAT collection of links to to many useful tutorials and/or informative threads. Thanks for collecting and sharing them, Carrie.

That said, having spent hundreds of hours over the years "reading" dozens and dozens of books and tutorials on various photo-art methods, about a year and a half ago I took the leap and got a set of Jeremy DVDs for Painter 8 (see last paragraph). Now that I've experienced both, I can honestly say that for me written tutorials don't come remotely close to the value and effectiveness of "seeing" someone like Jeremy, Helen or Marilyn Sholin demonstrate their methods. There's not only the benefit of watching them do their magic right before your eyes, they provide insightful commentary, tips and warnings along the way. It's also easy to view DVD instuction over and over, something I find more convenient and useful than plowing through a book or written tutorial again.

If one's objective is to broaden product offerings (translation: generate more profit) for a business, IMO "quality" DVD-based lessons have a distinct advantage: It takes way less time to grasp the concepts and get up to speed on basic methods** than muddling through and trying to connect the dots via countless well intended, but frequently not-all-that-good instruction crafted by amateurs.

( Note: Don't get it in your head that, "Fifteen minutes after watching a DVD tutorial I'll be able generate Jeremy-or-Helen quality results." It won't happen. It's more like watching Tiger Woods or Martha Stewart demonstrate golf or cooking techniques. You'll get visual lessons from experts on what to do and how to do it, but it's still up to you to practice-practice-practice developing your own skills and methods until you 'get it.' The point is IMO you'll get there sooner - wherever 'there' is for you.)

Some will point out quality training costs a lot of money. True. So does Photoshop, Photoshop upgrades, Painter, Painter upgrades, digital cameras, new lenses, filters, camera bags, subscriptions to professional organizations, scanners, printers, ink carts, paper, website hosting, etc. (At least there are no 'greens fees' unless you're shmoozing w/a client.) For business people training is another cost of doing business. The tradeoff is (hopefully) increased sales over a relatively short time that will eventuallly offset the training expense.

For people like myself who do this kind of thing as a hobby (no revenue), expensive DVD instruction is often a luxury. That's why I shop eBay for these types of educational offerrings in hopes of saving some serious green, but that's another story for another day in another thread.

Enough blathering on this one. Happy trails...

Danny

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Stuart
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Re: Sutton DVD- Problems & Questions
In reply to dannyraphael, Feb 16, 2006

Danny,
I ordered these and carefully studied the initial presentation on pastels.
I honestly do not believe this technique is what it appears to be.

In essence, he tells youto do a quickclone and to make a rough painting with a large brush, and then go over the important parts with a smaller higher opacity brush to "bring the detail out of the fog". I have not found this to be the case. I have even photographed simple objects to further test this notion. Try is with, say , a chair.

In my hands, you cannot simply scribble over the rough painting with the smaller brush. You will get just that- scribbles. I believe Sutton is actually using his high level art skills to paint or trace the important parts of the subject- making the whole thing deceptively easy. If it were just a matter of passing the smaller brush over the important details we would all be churning out great stuff in no time flat !
Whats your experience with this quickclone-large brush-small brush method ?
Stuart

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NiteRider
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Re: Sutton DVD- Problems & Questions
In reply to Stuart, Feb 16, 2006

Stuart wrote:

Danny,
I ordered these and carefully studied the initial presentation on
pastels.
I honestly do not believe this technique is what it appears to be.
In essence, he tells youto do a quickclone and to make a rough
painting with a large brush, and then go over the important parts
with a smaller higher opacity brush to "bring the detail out of the
fog". I have not found this to be the case. I have even
photographed simple objects to further test this notion. Try is
with, say , a chair.
In my hands, you cannot simply scribble over the rough painting
with the smaller brush. You will get just that- scribbles. I
believe Sutton is actually using his high level art skills to
paint or trace the important parts of the subject- making the
whole thing deceptively easy. If it were just a matter of passing
the smaller brush over the important details we would all be
churning out great stuff in no time flat !
Whats your experience with this quickclone-large brush-small brush
method ?
Stuart

Well, it may not work with real life painting or photography, or different type of painting. But not all programs, styles etc. work alike, especially with digital painting like Corel Paint it uses special feature (CLONING) to translate the original image into painting.

IOW, it doesn't really apply any permanent paint to canvas but continue to translating, you can even use the "Soft Clone" option to UNDO the already translate to reveal the original.

If you don't have Corel Painter (just guessing), then you can try the History Brush of Photoshop as they work pretty similar to Corel Painter's Quick Clone. Same with Quick Clone, using smaller history brush on small detail subject (like eyes, teeth, edge, ear etc..) or to clean up the larger brush etc..

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Stuart
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Re: Sutton DVD- Problems & Questions
In reply to NiteRider, Feb 16, 2006

Niterider,

Of course I have Painter 9 - how could I be telling you about all the tests I did without it. Have you seen the Sutton Video ? Do you have Painter 9 ?

Have you tried the quickclone-largebrush-small brush technique ? If so, what have your results been ?

Stuart

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NiteRider
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Re: Sutton DVD- Problems & Questions
In reply to Stuart, Feb 16, 2006

Stuart wrote:

Niterider,

Of course I have Painter 9 - how could I be telling you about all
the tests I did without it. Have you seen the Sutton Video ? Do
you have Painter 9 ?
Have you tried the quickclone-largebrush-small brush technique ? If
so, what have your results been ?

Stuart

I guess my memory problem, especially I don't pay much attention to the name of poster but the message only.

Yes, I have Painter IX, but not an experted on Painter IX or any. I have tried quite a few painter, but just for fun, and usually in very short time. Yes, I always start with Large brush to make the mess of almost the whole image (or having paint covered the whole canvas)... then switch to smaller to start painting, then smaller brush for small detail.

I used to paint on real canvas, and my style is kinds quick and stong brush stroke (sometime the image you have to look from some angle, focus to see hidden image etc..)... I just love many different arts and never do professionally (just for fun).

What it does? the larger brush the stronger brush give different effect that smaller doesn't have, then smaller brush to correct/cover the stroke you want to look different.

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KathyN
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Re: Sutton DVD- Problems & Questions
In reply to NiteRider, Feb 16, 2006

In my opinion, Jeremy Sutton's DVD tutorials are hard to beat if what you are looking for is an oil paint or chalk look. The "smaller brushes" that you use to bring up the details are still cloners, picking up the color from the photo below. The absolutely vital part is to pay attention to where and how you use those brush strokes, and to remember that in "real painting", a brush's color does not suddenly change from, say, blue to red. Each new color, even if the change is subtle, must be a new brush stroke. Otherwise, it IS "scribble". Here's one (which I have previously posted on this forum) that I did using Jeremy's approach;

-- hide signature --

KathyN

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Stuart
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Re: Sutton DVD- Problems & Questions
In reply to KathyN, Feb 17, 2006

Kathy,

Thank you very much for the reply, which is the first substantive post I have seen on this issue. I can perhaps understand about needing new stoke for a different color, but consider the following.I am asking very specific questions.
How exactly did you bring out the detail in the faces using a smaller brush ?

1. Did you paint the faces stroke by stoke as if you were an artist, using the tracing paper as an aid ?

2. Did you use "confluent scribbles" as you would with the soft cloner (many scribbles, forming a continuous surface) ? ( In my hands this gives a nearly featureless surface over the subject)

Stuart

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DavidC
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Re: Corel painter portraits
In reply to panoramaone, Feb 17, 2006

Darcy -

It all depends what style of 'painterly' portraits you want to make. Sutton is good for one thing, Sholin for another and so on. Similarly there is a yard of difference between smudging, and painting loose with evident brush strokes. Have a look around and decide what kind of pictures you want to make. For what it's worth, I think oils or other opaque media are your best bet. I have seen no convincing watercolour portrait digital simulations. Lots of efforts (including some of my own) called 'watercolour' but none that look like real transparent watercolours.

David
http://www.davidcolepictures.co.uk

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KathyN
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Re: Sutton DVD- Problems & Questions
In reply to Stuart, Feb 17, 2006

Stuart,

I recognize your name as someone with a number of post on this subject. Your great desire to really "get it" is apparent in your posts, and that is what will help you to get there eventually.

As I reduce the brush size, I am thinking about what it is that I'm painting, I'm picturing it in my mind. I "know" that there is an eye there (for example) though I may not have it exactly in place or size in my head, but the cloning brush will help me. I work over the area, finding it with my brush strokes and shaping it with them. With the smaller brush size, it's not so important that your brush strokes each include only the one color, but painting across the whole area won't get you where you want to go. "Feel" your way into it. "Think" of your painting, and concentrate on the little area you are working on and try to keep your strokes doing what the underneath photo is doing, shape and value-wise. In that way it is SO much like the real thing (and yes, I have done painting and drawing, so I know). It comes down to allowing your brain to become convinced that you are creating a painting. You look at the screen. Play with the transparency of the tracing paper (Jeremy Sutton recommends using a layer which you fill with white and then reduce in opacity to where you are comfortable working. It is ever so much better than actually using the tracing paper). It's a "head thing", really. Keep at it! If you have something that you feel comfortable posting, I could give more specific help. Good luck! :> )
--
KathyN

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KathyN
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Re: Corel painter portraits
In reply to DavidC, Feb 17, 2006

David, I absolutely agree when you are talking about Painter in regard to watercolor, but the WOW! technique really does it for me in watercolor. And the CD that came with the One click Wow! book that I recently picked up has the watercolor brushes as straight brushes, not just pattern brushes!
--
KathyN

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DavidC
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Re: Corel painter portraits
In reply to KathyN, Feb 17, 2006

Kathy - Wow's good but I have seen no convincing watercolour portraits -Wow or other.

David

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dannyraphael
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Re: Sutton DVD- Problems & Questions
In reply to Stuart, Feb 17, 2006

Stuart wrote:

Danny,
I ordered these and carefully studied the initial presentation on
pastels.
I honestly do not believe this technique is what it appears to be.
In essence, he tells youto do a quickclone and to make a rough
painting with a large brush, and then go over the important parts
with a smaller higher opacity brush to "bring the detail out of the
fog". I have not found this to be the case. I have even
photographed simple objects to further test this notion. Try is
with, say , a chair.
In my hands, you cannot simply scribble over the rough painting
with the smaller brush. You will get just that- scribbles. I
believe Sutton is actually using his high level art skills to
paint or trace the important parts of the subject- making the
whole thing deceptively easy. If it were just a matter of passing
the smaller brush over the important details we would all be
churning out great stuff in no time flat !
Whats your experience with this quickclone-large brush-small brush
method ?
Stuart

Stuart:

My DVDs are on loan at the moment and it's been awhile since I watched these tutorials, so I don't recall the specifics of this particular method or the example image(s) he used.

FWIW: I seldom use brushes from the Cloner group; I more often use various non-cloner brushes.

Just to double check... the "clone color" option on the Color palette is engaged for the non-cloner brush(es) you're using, right? If not whatever you are painting will have no connection to the clone source.

I've found Jeremy to be very responsive to questions via e-mail (check his site for the contact info), so I would recommend getting in touch with him if you feel like you're still struggling and need some assistance.

Danny

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Stuart
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Which Wow !
In reply to KathyN, Feb 17, 2006

Areyou talking about the Photoshop Wow ! book or the Painter 9 Wow ! book ?

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Stuart
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Here is What I am Talking About
In reply to dannyraphael, Feb 17, 2006

Danny,
Here is an example of hat I am talking about.
This is the first shot, from Phil's Kodak 880 review:

http://hiddenworlds.smugmug.com/gallery/1169991/1/56601882

Next is the "rough drawing" with square chalk set to pick up original color (stamp in color box greyed out). The only reason it even resembples a human head is because I followed the lines of the head

http://hiddenworlds.smugmug.com/gallery/1169991/1/56601883

Finally, here is an attempt at going over some of the eyes with a finer square chalk- see the captions.

http://hiddenworlds.smugmug.com/gallery/1169991/1/56601884

The only reason the lips even look like lips is because of the way I drew them.

The point is this: this mode- which works for the majority of brushes- just picks up color, not form. You have to draw it with the finer brush !

Just "scribbling" over the areas you want detail in leaves only the oulines of your scribbles.
Surely you can comment on this.

Stuart

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dannyraphael
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Photoshop WOW watercolor tutorial download (free)
In reply to Stuart, Feb 17, 2006

Stuart wrote:

Areyou talking about the Photoshop Wow ! book or the Painter 9 Wow
! book ?

Photoshop WOW... Get the tutorial here:

http://webdesign.informit.com/title/0321125312#

  • Under "more information" click "Downloads."

Although the source is the "Photoshop 7 Wow" book, it will work with PS 6, 7, CS and beyond.

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NiteRider
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Re: Sutton DVD- Problems & Questions
In reply to KathyN, Feb 17, 2006

KathyN wrote:

In my opinion, Jeremy Sutton's DVD tutorials are hard to beat if
what you are looking for is an oil paint or chalk look. The
"smaller brushes" that you use to bring up the details are still
cloners, picking up the color from the photo below. The absolutely
vital part is to pay attention to where and how you use those brush
strokes, and to remember that in "real painting", a brush's color
does not suddenly change from, say, blue to red. Each new color,
even if the change is subtle, must be a new brush stroke.
Otherwise, it IS "scribble". Here's one (which I have previously
posted on this forum) that I did using Jeremy's approach;

This is type of large and heavy brush stroke that I like (one of my painting styles). I like to have the brush strokes go freely and wild

Well, I haven't done any digital painting lately, and only done few in the past. Right now, I am little too busy learning other, and feel the time is running out on me (little too old to enjoy many different things at same time)

-- hide signature --

KathyN

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