A6000 vs. A77ii Continuous AF - Very confused

Started 7 months ago | Discussions thread
123Mike
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Re: A6000 vs. A77ii Continuous AF - Very confused
In reply to VirtualMirage, 7 months ago

VirtualMirage wrote:

123Mike wrote:

Well then, it is the generally shared opinion on average, the consensus is that the EVF on the A6000 is very good and good enough.

Opinions are still not facts. Reread my original post and see how far off topic you are.

We're both expressing opinions and facts.

People that actually looked through the A6000 found it to be more than enough.

Again, opinions. You really haven't a clue how to differentiate the two.

The fact that people find the EVF good enough, is a fact.

That's your opinion.

No, that's fact since there is no possible way the AF can function while an exposure is taking place.

The SLTs have the same issue. What is shown in the EVF (or LCD) is interrupted while the exposure is taking place.

There is no way the camera can focus in real time while an exposure is taking place.

It can see between shots.

Exactly, between shots. Your comment here just contradicted your comment above.

I'm not contradicting anything. You're just trying distort things whenever you think that helps your argument.

You think that you find the ultimate holy grail crushing blow providing the ultimate confirmation bias for yourself. But what if the A6000 *does* track well at 11 fps? Then what?

What is your problem? Why are you so threatened by a factual comparison?

Why are you so threatened by opinions? I think you're trying to get others to have an opinion, controlled with how your are presenting facts. The fact that the opinions aren't working out the way you want, is upsetting you.

This isn't a contest. I wasn't saying that camera A is better than camera B. I am just stating the differences between the two.

What is a fact is that A is better than B in some ways, and B is better than A in other ways.

So you "won" by 9%. While you think that is a big victory, I think the vast majority don't care for that. Unless for people desperate clutching for confirmation bias.

Won?

It's you that is obsessed that 12 fps is more than 11 fps.

I wasn't trying to win anything, I wasn't saying that one was better than the other.

You are most certainly implying that one is better than the other. You even come up with stories about continuous uninterrupted focus input making anything less automatically inferior.

It is just a direct comparison to explain the reasons why the camera costs more.

Given what you can get for half the price these dasys, it seems to me the A77ii is overpriced. However, it is possible that the E-mount cameras are somewhat subsidized in the hopes of expensive E-mount lens sales.

A few buttons can't cost all *that* much. You're clutching at straws here.

A few buttons still add to the cost. More buttons also mean more seals, larger PCB, more inputs, larger components, etc.

Common assembly line stuff. Won't cost that much.

You are the one clutching at straws trying to find every little thing to make an argument that one camera is better than the other when all I am doing is making a cost case comparison.

That's what I think about you. You're trying to milk any little thing you can to nullify views that are different from your own.

I guess both our opinions are different.

What opinion? That the A6000's flash is weaker? That is a fact, clear and simple. I wasn't stating whether it is satisfactory or not, just that it is a weaker flash which will then need a weaker capacitor and smaller flash head which costs less. You are the one that is throwing the opinions out there that it is more than enough for you and that you prefer not to use a flash. See the difference between those two statements? Fact versus opinion.

You're expressing opinions about the cost. You're also expressing opinions about your assumption that one's focus system is better than the other.

Trust me, you're being negative. My comment was that in my opinion for half the cost you can have nearly the same quality photographic experience. Plus there are a few advantages of the A6000 over the A77ii. Video for one. Lighter. Smaller.

No, not negative, just fact.

Trust me, you're being negative right from the start.

I am listing what adds to the cost of the camera while you are only trying to list opinions to justify a cheaper camera.

Plus you're trying to downplay what I have to say. And you're adding opinions. Claiming you're only about facts, which is false.

I, frankly, don't care if the OP buys and A6000 or an A77II. If it suits their needs, that's great. Both are great cameras.

The fact is that the A6000 is a very competent camera. Another fact is that the A77ii is better than the A6000 for some things. Also a fact is that the A6000 is better than the A77ii at some other things. Fact is that the A77ii costs twice as much.

No, that is not a fact, that is an opinion. A widely regarded opinion, but an opinion none the less.

In your eyes, people should not be saying things like camera X is a competent camera? You'd be having very boring conversations then, because it must only be about what can not be denied by anyone. Oh but wait, you *are* allowed to insert and imply opinions, but you have a problem when others do that. Right. And that's reasonable?

It is one's opinion that the A6000 is a very competent camera and may be a competent camera for many people. But it isn't a competent camera for everyone. Same goes for the A77II. That is the difference. A fact is irrefutable. 1/4000s is slower than 1/8000s, that is fact because it cannot be disproven.

So from now on, you won't express any more opinions then? Only state facts. That also means you can not comment on if someone's picture is a nice picture, because after all, those can not be facts.

That's what I think about you. Trying to downplay every point I make. Being negative. Overlooking any constructive points I might make. I find all that very childish. I simply let you have a taste of your own medicine, is all.

You are starting to become delusion. I am not downplaying anyone. I am only correcting your misconceptions of facts and opinions.

You're not being reasonable is what. This is not how normal conversation work. You're being absolutely anal about things here. Trying police what one can and can not say. Ridiculous.

I am not saying you are wrong to think how awesome the A6000 is nor am I saying how much much better the A77II is.

When I do, you're pointing out how it is not a fact. So, every time there is an opinion, you're going to try to get others to conform to only expressing facts then.

I am merely displaying facts that can contribute to an increased cost.

You're pretending that you're talking about facts. But you're implying opinions, by making it seem that the cost of buttons is substantial. I think it's not. We simply have a difference of opinion in that regard.

As for which one is better, I'll let whoever read the data make up their own mind based on their own needs.

Yes, let's let others decide who is being reasonable. I'm not worried.

A fact that you can not deny.

Funny, since I never denied its capabilities to begin with. I only mentioned its limitations by design.

Those are your assumptions and opinions, not facts.

It's you that's been trying to compete and downplay and ridicule and all the rest of it.

Wrong on all levels.

Again, we have different opinions about this.

I am not competing, just stating facts and correcting you where you are wrong.

Not true. You're adding opinions.

I am not saying your opinions are wrong, they are (in fact) your opinions.

Which clearly disagree with yours.

But I will let you know when your opinions differ from facts or when you try to pass an opinion as a fact.

And I will point out when I disagree with your opinion.

I am not downplaying anyone either. If you think I am, care to give an example of where I did that?

As for ridiculing, again you are seeing things again. Your perception here is way off.

We simply have differences in opinions. You're pretending you're all about facts. Not so.

When people assess what product offers what, there are going to be opinions, whether you like it or not. Clearly, you do not like opinions that you do not agree with. You're trying to "win" the argument by reaching for what you think are facts. You happy pose opinions as facts. You're fantasizing how something has to be better. But for me to have an opinion about something, oh no, that's not ok. Then it suddenly becomes about "facts" again. You're making for a rather weak argument.

I am all for opinions, that you are clearly wrong.

We disagree.

What I am not for is someone trying to pass opinions as fact.

You're making your share of assumptions. This comes off as truthful claims. Claims how one is better because of something that you see working different from the other.

I also am not for when someone is trying to downplay facts based on their opinions.

Again, I am not trying to win anything. I am just correcting you.

And I am correcting you. You're claiming you're only stating facts. You're stating opinions and you're making assumptions as well.

Look at my original list again. It is you that is fantasizing by thinking I am out to attack you in some way and downplay your personal opinion of the A6000, when in fact I haven't said one negative thing about your opinions or about the A6000. Reread the posts.

You've been negative to moment that you started this argument.

You can have your opinions. Voice them to the OP and others.

I have. You seemed to have a problem with that.

But you used your opinions in direct response to me to downplay the specs differences and then take offense when I correct you on the difference between fact and opinion and what the original topic was about.

What facts have I denied?

Again, opinions are part of the assessment.

What assessment? Do you recall what the OP was asking in the original post?

There it is again. "but but but, op this and op that, and dare you veer off course". It's about A77ii vs A6000 stuff. Cost difference. What justifies it. Does it imply that one is automatically so much better because of the higher cost? Pointing out that the lower cost one is by no means inferior, is just fine, and you can not forbid that. You simply do not have that kind of control.

I don't recall seeing in the post asking what is one's opinion of the cameras. They wanted to know what is the difference between the two that makes one more expensive than the other. Pretty straightforward, if you ask me.

And my point of view is very straightforward. I openly share my views, my opinions, and my findings. It is what we do here. You don't like that. Well that's too bad.

But you *ARE* posing it as a "win", and you're trying to make it go full-stop right then and there. It isn't reasonable.

I'm sorry, so posting fact comparisons between the two cameras that may contribute to costs automatically deems it as a competition?

Distortions.

Really? Grow up.

We'll let others decide who's the one needing growing up. People probably think we're both nuts at this point.

If I was to make it a competition I would have summed up the fact list with a compelling argument to sway the OP to one camera or the other. But I did not. I posted specs that may contribut to the increased cost, that is pretty much it.

Great. And others contribute other information. We're not all the same.

OMG you're admitting a fact.

Shocking! I confirmed something the A6000 has that was just mentioned in a previous that wasn't up for discussion earlier. Wow! Unbeleivable ! Call me a changed man!

Yes, and it was something that the A6000 is better at. And at the core of one of the most important aspects of these cameras.

Please...

Excuses...

Your excuse, I am just stating the obvious.

That's your perception.

I did not say that. I said that the A77 anyway, and A77ii slightly less so, has larger gaps between the autofocus points. It therefore has to make compromises that the A6000 does not. You just distorted that to claiming that I said that the A77ii can't track objects. The A77ii can track objects, but it has a disadvantage.

That is what the word imply means, to suggest or say something without actually having to say it. You listed the capability of the A6000 in a way that came across as something the A77/A77II couldn't do.

I felt it would be important to point out that, yes, the A6000 can do things that the A77ii can not. I'm sure there are other things where it is the other way around. And that's fine. So, why is this a problem again?

All I did was add to that statement saying that it is capable. I didn't say one was superior over the other, just that it had the ability to do that as well.

Your stories about continuous auto focus were quite telling.

I'm sure it does. But the A6000 can see the object in more places, so it has an advantage. This isn't an opinion. I'm merely stating a fact.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious on a capability I didn't even initially discussed. It was you, after all that brought it up.

And that's what happens. Things come up. Not something for you to forbid.

And where does this fall in the added cost of the camera? You know, the original question at hand?

Op this and op that. I guess everything should be a questionair on forums like this. Rule A number one: though shall not discuss any other matters than precisely what the op talks about. Well, the op didn't set any rules. The op expressed what justified the cost difference. And that leads to analyzing all the things that people can think of. I contributed my bit. You had a problem with that.

Some others share my opinions. It is my opinion that the A6000 is as formidable a camera as the A77ii is. I think it is incorrect information to see claims how the A77ii's AF system has to be automatically superior. While I'm seeing how people state that ultimately, the only way to know is by doing side by side tests and comparisons, at the same time stories are constructed and parroted around how an SLT can see the subject full time, uninterrupted. While that may be true, it does not imply that the A6000 is automatically inferior. Perhaps all the A6000 needs is a single frame to draw the conclusions it needs, and it can get that frame between each 1/11s shot.

Wow! Just wow. You managed to take a cost comparison and turn it into a superiority match.

That's how I see you.

You're trying to downplay every point I make.

Actually, I think it is you who is trying to downplay the facts as well as anything else I have to say.

What facts have I denied?

Do you even know what downplay is?

You're trying to make my opinions seems incorrect and unimportant by trying to change the subject to other facts.

To make some appear less important than it really is.

Exactly.

At every fact I posted you downplayed.

That's what I think you do.

I mentioned weaker flash, you say its good enough and prefer not to use it.

You're distorting things again. I was sharing my excitement how I prefer to maximize on utilizing natural lighting, by using a bright lens on top of a focal reducer. I've gotten nice results with that, and perhaps others might find that useful. So, I can live with a smaller flash, because in my case I'm not using it much, if at all. When others get frustrated that the flash is too weak, then they could also consider using the tricks I have. Or not. That's ok.

I say higher resolution EVF, you say you are happy with yours.

No. I said that I have not seen people having used or evaluated the EVF, complain about it being not good enough. So you're distorting, misquoting things, again.

I mention more buttons, you say they aren't needed.

I didn't quite say they're not needed. I said that there are plenty of buttons on the A6000, plus that it has a customizable menu on top of the customizable buttons.

I mentioned faster shutter speed, you question its usefulness.

No, I was curious as to why it would be useful. Again, you're misquoting and distorting. That's disingenuous.

At every turn you downplayed what I posted then countered with opinions.

I'm not allowed to express opinions... says only you.

I didn't downplay you, I corrected you.

So my opinions need correcting? Opinions about button quantities and using bright lenses and avoiding flash? Because you have different opinions.

In opinions where you gave options (no flash, large aperture), I mentioned that it is a double edge sword, works well when it is needed but doesn't suit all scenarios, and still doesn't avoid the fact that the flash is weaker.

I though my solution was constructive. You didn't like it. The flash is weak, fine. So?

That isn't downplaying. I was comparing apples to apples and you decided to introduce an orange. The orange had no place in the conversation since I was talking about apples.

Sure it had place in the conversation! Flash is used to make photography in darker situation possible, among other reasons. There are other ways to do that, which are also appealing. Sure, it doesn't solve every need, but it *IS* a solution in some cases. I'm free to offer these options, and there isn't a darn thing you can do about that.

You seem to think that all my points are meaningless simply because you are supposedly stating only facts. Well, the *FACT* is that you're also stating opinions all over the place. You're including assumptions. So it's ok for you to express opinions, but when I do it, we're going back to facts again.

And what facts did I mention that are really opinions?

I've talked about that a number of times now, right in this very message. Scroll up.

Out of my list, there is one and only one that is not a proven fact and I made that known from the very beginning, and that is with the shutter life. I said it "probably" had a longer shutter life. We already know the A77II is rated at 150,000 clicks, that is fact. The only assumption is with the A6000 being 100,000 which I even labeled as being speculated (based on older lower end cameras rated shutter life). And this was mentioned only for the sake of a possible contributor to price discrepancy, not as to which camera is better. So no, I did not pass any opinions on as fact.

That particular issue, it doesn't affect me, and probably not most others either. And I've explained why.

Some facts are meaningless. 12 fps vs 11 fps is not a significant difference. It's all about reasoning, assessing options, weighing things off. Normal people kind of stuff.

Some facts may be meaningless to some, but not to everyone. I may find the difference between the 11 and 12 fps meaningless, but I do find the 1/4000s versus 1/8000s useful. You may think the opposite.

I didn't say that. I was merely curious as to why and what problems it solves that can not be solved otherwise. One thing I can think of is at ISO in bright sunlight with large aperture. Perhaps there are other reasons.

But those are opinions. It isn't a fact that some facts are meaningless because they may mean something to someone.

Which is why I contribute what I do.

But, if you must merely stick with facts. Fact is that you can not know at this point that the AF system of the A77ii is superior to the A6000. Fact is that there will be differences, with some aspects favoring one camera and other aspects favoring the other camera. It then becomes weighing them off. And that's where opinions will lead to choices. Opinions are a reality, and simply shouting"but..but... the facts the fact... the plane... the plane".

Where, tell me where, did I tout one as clearly being superior to the other?

Oh wait, I didn't!

The auto focus mechanism comes to mind.

I mentioned spec level facts and mentioned limitations in certain situations when responding directly to some of your opinoins, nothing more. I never said how one camera is better than the other and that you must choose camera A over camera B. If that's what you saw, then you need to get your eyes checked.

You're advertising your opinion based preferences, even when you pretend you don't.

As are you. Very much so.

Please, enlighten me where I was.

Stories about auto focusing for one. How having more buttons is much better. How it's important to have a faster shutter speed. It's all over.

I would list some examples of you from your posts but....well, I would pretty much be copying and pasting everything you said.

That's what happens in a conversation. You're trying to come up anything you can think of to have it your way. Oh, but but the OP this and the OP that. In a discussions, things lead to other points. It's a normal course of conversation. And I've been trying to be constructive.

I responded to what the OP actually asked about, which was cost difference. I posted a comparison list that was mainly just specs and nothing more. So I responded to the OP pretty much exactly what they asked for. So yeah, I really had it my way there.

That's your approach. I offered mine. You can't conform others to your standards.

That's great and everything, but you're still pretending that you're sticking to facts, while in fact you're including opinions.

Again, what opinions might that be?

Scroll up, rinse and repeat.

Which led to other discussions, to which you contributed offering your opinions.

Most of those opinions were based on your response questioning the usefulness of some of the spec differences. So those opinions were responding to you and not presented as facts nor meant to sway the OP or anyone else to a camera of my choice. That's very different from your opinions which are all PRO camera A.

We all express our opinions a little differently. It is how it is.

It's a free world, and if I feel I can contribute something, I am not going to let someone like you control me.

Feel free to contribute, but try to contribute in a proper way.

What you consider proper, might be seen as un-creative by others (it is by me).

I do not feel that my post was the proper one to respond off of with your opinions since you are trying to dispute facts with opinions.

You're trying to prevent someone arguing why a given fact is not important enough to make a enough of a difference to make it a deciding factor. So, you're trying to control the conversation, again, through restrictions and made up rules, your standards.

That is the only reason I am responding to you in this manner. If you feel my post was the proper podium for you, then be prepared for a response that is directed squarely at you.

Give it your best shot.

Knock yourself out.

Seriously, let's take a look at where the topic was and where you are:

"Topic"<->"My Post"<---------------------------------------------------->"Your Response"

Facts are facts, opinions are opinions. You seem to confuse the two and that is what I am having issues with. I am also having issues with that your contributions in no way answer the OP's question.

You're not tolerating opinions that you do not like, that much is clear.

All you saw was a post that mentioned A6000. You are so happy with your camera, which I am happy for you that you are enjoying the A6000, that you felt the need to shout out your love for it.

That's your opinion and your view. You have your interests. You think your view is more valid?

In a thread that is asking which camera do you prefer, that would fit perfectly and I would more than likely not even care how you respond to my post since that is where an opinion piece fits perfectly and can go head to head against facts. But this isn't a post asking how do you like you camera. This is a post asking what are the differences between the two cameras that makes one cost is much more than the other. And for that, you are off topic and that is why I have a problem with the way you responded to my post

I don't think I'm off topic at all. This argument I'm having with your is off topic, but that's an argument that you started, not me.

I think what you need to learn is that other people have other ways of looking at things. Instead of trying to control things by forcing things, let people be what they are. If someone offers a creative solution, don't downplay that, just because you insist that the other must simply acknowledge a fact.

 123Mike's gear list:123Mike's gear list
Sony a6000 Sony E PZ 18-105mm F4 G OSS A3000 Sony E 18-55mm F3.5-5.6 OSS Sony DT 35mm F1.8 SAM +4 more
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