EOSHD's - Video quality charts – February 2014

Started 7 months ago | Discussions thread
jkoch2
Contributing MemberPosts: 728
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Re: EOSHD's - push BlackMagic very much, are they biased or neutral?
In reply to JJ Rodin, 7 months ago

JJ Rodin wrote:

jkoch2 wrote:

Sebastian1x wrote:

EOSHD writes very much good about BlackMagic. I have no experiance what so ever of BM but its a very small player and the cameras use a tiny small sensor,

Only the BMPCC, it is a super16, still much bigger sensor than most 1/3" camcorders!!

It also saps a battery fast and is harder to keep in focus.  The camcorder is also apt to come with a build in shotgun, better audio controls, good EVF, an versatile fixed lens.  Different needs, different gear.  Shovel versus hammer.  Utility van versus Corolla.

Roughly the size of a m4/3 sensor. Not so tiny by camcorder standards. It's the FF or APS-C sensors that present the most problem with pixel binning and aliasing..

How does pixel binning cause artifacts? I think pixel binning would effectively 'zoom' the lens, much like Canon crop mode or magic lantern crop mode - it uses the center of the sensor - and it effectively has NO artifacts beyond crappy H.264 encoder.

Binning involves skipping rows of pixels captured from the entire sensor.

Pixel binning is used by which cams or makes?

Nearly all, except those whose sensors are optimized for video (HG-G300), or perhaps the 3MOS cameras without Bayering.  Cameras that crop sensor reduce binning.  How the RX10 circumvents the problem has not been fully analyzed or put to test, since digital downsizing would seem to do about the same thing as an anti-aliasing filter.

How do they use Pixel binning in video? Marry rows together and then downsample or ...? Also, I suppose it matters on shutter type - global vs rolling.

Global shutter requires more light and power.

Its row skipping that really does most artifacts - ex. 20mp sensor - 2mp output - scan row, skip 9 rows, scan row, skip 9 rows, scan row, etc THAT must cause lots/most of problems! Then H.264 has the 8bit limit from 14bit source issues and 420 sampling.

Not sure of the particulars, but very likely there is a structural or engineering constraint.  Moiré won't go away by waving a wand.

That is why if the camera did a full sensor scan and then downsized to 4k or 2k, it would be much better video, too much cpu needed for most DSPs in todays cams!! It will happen though to the improvement of either 4k or 2k HD.

4k video from a 4k sensor (big or small) might be ideal, but not be easy to sell.  10MP should be more than enough resoultion for still photography, and leave room for cropping, but the public seems to believe otherwise.

it is difficult to understand how it is possible for BM to be able to perform so close to the top legue at 1/10 of the price.

The camera body is maybe only 1/10 the cost of a full rig. It is not geared to run and gun or casual video. It entails recording in ProRes or RAW, which none of the DSLRs do natively, and usually pertains only to commercial productions and lots of fuss over color grading and post effects.

What the H3LL is 'run and gun' video? I have NEVER seen anyone running around with a cam, shoot, run, shoot, run..... And you would need a great gimbal/steadier for actual running with a cam!! I HATE current trends of this unsteady video (ie handheld with steadier) some TV and movies do, seems very amateur to me, and NOT realistic, even though we bobble when we walk - we do not see the motion much so I hate this recent trend - seems lazy to me!

Factual video about news events, sports, or a whole lot else must be F&G or not exist at all.  Even structured events like weddings require lots of spontaneous shots of actions or scenes that cannot be repeated or directed to suit "caged" cameras on dollies or tripods.  Not every situation or budget allows for controlled lighting, boom mic, scripts, focus pulling, rehearsals, staging, transcoding, color grading, or control of public locations and extras.  Sometimes there is only one person, one camera, and one chance.

What idiot came up with that R&G phrase and why? Yes I have seen it before, and thought it stupid then too.

Telejournalists run and gun, or they won't get their story or meet a deadline.  War correspondents who don't R&G might simply get shot.

"R&G" is a very mainstream basketball strategy: some teams score better by attempting many long shots, rather than trying to structure weaves to get close to the basket.

And given the number of write-ups by EOSHD makes me wonder if EOSHD gives a trusthworthy neautral oppinion? Or is BM in fact so outstandingly good??

EOSHD is not neutral: it is heavily in favor adding advanced, high-bitrate codecs to large sensor cameras that traditionally catered mainly to still photography. Within that narrow-DOF advocacy niche, the author is more impartial than most when it comes to scoring image quality. The main criticism of Canon video is not that it is bad, but that neither Canon or Nikon care to add ProRes or RAW video support. Topics like stabilization, audio, or action video are peripheral.

True for DSLRs, not true for C300/C500/1D C. Canon needs raw in the 5D IV for sure & better H.264 encoder h/w & H.265 soon! Nikon needs to wake up in video, they lag everyone !!

h.265 would appear first in a phone, if anything.  If that hasn't happened already, it is probably for important reasons.

Nikon is missing nothing, unless it can be shown that there is any money to be made.  Accomodations to video might simply irritate its traditional video-phobic base and not swing any market share in its favor.

EOSHD is obviously sympathetic to BlackMagic, but has also given glowing reviews of Arri Alexa shoulder camcorders, and even of the tiny RX100 or HX9V.

Did you see all the Oscar and other award nominations for Arri cams - expensive but the pros love them & their output - seems pros know much more about these cams than us - they should they use them daily!

A different matter if the company owns or rents the gear and any "hard costs" are only a tiny fraction of a total budget.

If you like IQ, BM cams are very good, NOT the best but affordable great cams! Post processing is a burden and you get what you put into to these things.

The IQ is good, but only if you can afford the multiple requirements besides the camera body.

BlackMagic saps batteries fast, the on-board mice is weak, and the storage media costs. But those criteria do not count in the ranking.

BlackMagic appeals to people who want pro-grade codecs in an inexpensive camera body. The mere consumer, enthusiast, or SME videographer will have to invest more than imagined to crank the best out of such cameras, and the added workflow to exploit 4.2.2 is another challenge, not worth most people's time, unless they neglect life's other chores, renounce friends and family, and the forget the gnawing fact that viewers want, above-all, content (preferably

Too true! Depends on wife I suspect?!

Add a million other things.

funny), and most video gets streamed at such low bitrates that IQ margins are not perceptible. Bad light, bad audio, camera shake, or incompetent audio mixing make any video shot on any camera bad.

H.265 may change all that, when in all our graphic cards and tablets, etc. Quality will matter more and more - 444 and 422 have their place - mostly in the near and mid future - H.265 chips must come first ! Raw for the pros - H.265 for the rest of us.

If that were so, why aren't YouTube or NetFlix streaming h.265 on Androids already?   It is not necessarily a panacea, any more than plenoptics, a Foveon sensor, hydrogen fusion, or travel by Concorde.  There are costs and trade-offs.  The chip power or manufacture requirements might outdistance the bitrate advantage.

Little BlackMagic may succeed because it caters to a (very) particular niche that the giants may never be able to address, because the scope of the market is too small. Even if the GH4 turns out to be a great camera, it will not cause a dent in Panasonic's overall outlook or quest for shareholder value.

Not bad for a company of 150+ ppl !! They are growing too! And changing the landscape of the biz, scaring some bigs, not many companies can say that - I wish I was a part of it ! (the bigs rejected their ideas, so BM had to go independent)

Then Send them a check.  That may help more than your sentiments.

I have nothing but admiration for BM !

Would you lend them money?  The company is private, so it published no financial statements for the general public to know whether they make money on the cameras or not.  Venture capital is probably difficult to attract if a strategy is to under-sell Arri, RED, or large coporations in a niche market.

Well, in any case, people who pre-order cameras which take a year to deliver are loaning money interest free.

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