D610 to be announced within 48 hours (as of 10/5)

Started Oct 6, 2013 | Discussions thread
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It's still all good.
In reply to Nikonfan99, Oct 9, 2013

Nikonfan99 wrote:

Yes and sometimes we get people that want to argue and dont use common sense and feel that they somehow are of a higher education and know better and question others on common sense and like to argue. Life must be exhausting when you need to be right all the time and want to bleed a topic to death and can’t take things for what they are.

This is an interesting paragraph, worth exploring.

You accuse me of being unable to "take things for what they are," but have you established "what things are?"

I'm arguing that Nikon establishes "what things are."  They do it when they say, "Under no circumstance."   They have facts.

If you think that's not "what things are," what's so unreasonable about me asking for facts (as opposed to advertisements or anecdote) to justify your point?  That seems pretty fair.   Nikon says "X is so."  You say "X is not so."  Why do I get accused of being high-falutin' when I ask you how you know?  And why is it untoward of me to think critically when "how you know better" doesn't seem to involve any primary source fact?

Those aren't crazy questions.

Facts are what things are.  Anecdotes, and advertisements, and hearsay might all suggest how we want things to be, but facts are what things are.   There's a difference, and the difference matters.

C'mon, that's not such a crazy thing to point out.

It is actually very simple but you don’t get it because you want to argue with others. You know that Nikon is not even going to give you what you are asking for and will only give you the corporate line and quote you the warranty data.

Guilty as charged: I do want to argue with you about this, because I think the way you conflate fact, opinion, and assumption on this issue is problematic and not ultimately helpful.

But you're also right that I've had fine opportunity to make that point, so I won't belabor it.

You want warranty data? Stick to what you have quoted like a robot and move on. You want real world help? which actually I don’t think you even are asking for help.

I'm not.  I'm asking for factual knowledge.  Real knowledge.   Certainty.

Hunches are good, too.  Hey, hunches can point us in the direction of fact and certainty.  But hunches are *not* the same thing as fact, and there's some real hardship to be had for wishing they were--in cleaning your camera sensor and in life, in general.

You don’t even have a D600 and are wasting people’s time. Some people want to clean a sensor and use products made by companies that know a lot more on the topic and that is what it comes to.

I'm sorry that I just don't see it: you've pointed me to many resources, and none of them cite any primary source fact.  Not a one!

What's more, not a one of them offers any technical insight into what they're recommending.  If they can't point me to a Nikon guy who can talk about it, maybe they can talk about it with some specificity.  Hey guys, what's your chemical made of?  How do you know it won't damage anything?  Easy questions, but they're not answered.

And would it be so hard for the Copper Hill Imaging people (nice guys that they are) to get Nikon on the line?  And yet . . . .

Just like what we have given you is nothing, you have given nothing back.

I have given you something back--something pretty important.  I've given you a reminder that facts matter, and that facts and opinion are different.

You quote the manual and we will take the common sense route. The professionals that you feel high and mighty over,

Sorry to interrupt again, but why is it "high and mighty" of me to ask someone, somewhere, for some primary source fact?

I'm not saying these people (or you) are stupid, uneducated, incapacitated, bull-headed, dumb people.  There's no judging going on here, from me: I am noticing, only, that their speculation on this issue runs contrary to clear, fact-driven guidance ("Under no circumstance").

Yes, I am suggesting that you don't know what you think you know about this.  Why?  Because you have no facts.  Because you're presenting selected anecdote, hearsay, and advertisements as though they were facts.

But that's different than calling you a stupid human being.  I'm sure there are more than a few Nobel Laureates who know nothing about DSLR sensor cleaning, right?

(The judging--like the assuming--that's going on, here, is from you.  I ask for facts, and I get accused of being a "robot," of being "high and mighty," and of defying "common sense" for doing so.  OK.)

have used these methods since the first DSLR cameras came out. Copper Hill Images has been doing this since 2002. They are a lot more qualified on the topic compared to you.

You are an exhausting person.

I am sure having a common sense discussion with you in real life must be a joy.

Me: Nice sky right?

You: What do you mean nice sky? How do you know it is nice? Do you have scientific data sheets to show me that this sky is clean and thus considered nice? It could be polluted!!!!

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