D610 to be announced within 48 hours (as of 10/5)

Started Oct 6, 2013 | Discussions thread
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John Motts
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,073Gear list
Re: Smiling, Happy People Holding Hands
In reply to MarkJH, Oct 9, 2013

MarkJH wrote:

Nikonfan99 wrote:

I really like the fact that you said you could not confirm that any of us people on here are “pros” so our advice or the fact that we clean our sensor is not that reliable of a source. I gave you known professional shooters that have been doing the procedure and provide good advice and you shoot that down and focus on his voice or crack jokes.

(a) It was a good joke!

(b) The video you provided was an advertisement. That doesn't rule it out as being useful (we'll say Moose is a great guy and wouldn't shill for something he doesn't personally use) but it's also not a definitive endorsement of the product's long-term safety.

The Copper Hill Imagining folks seem like a nice crew with good intentions, but a read through their instructions is pretty informative. Consider:

"VISIBILITY is the key word in sensor swabbing. The highly reflective "mirrored" surface of the sensor makes it a real challenge to guide your swab into the starting corner. This is just as difficult as trying to poke a fish in a pond with a stick."

Sounds like fun. Or, how about this:

"Looking back on my first swabbing, I now realize I could have established a better orientation of where my head, my hand and the light were, BEFORE I went in to swab for the first time. This is why I strongly recommend doing a dry run with the lens off, just like you were going to swab. Experiment with the amount and position of your light source until you have the best view of the sensor possible."

No possibility to screw anything up there. Or this:

"Take a couple of seconds to look at the CCD or CMOS. If you see any specks on your AA filter, try to blow them off with a blower before you swab (I recommend using canned air if possible). DO NOT swab your sensor if you see a speck on it and you cannot blow it off. If you just can't remove it, please send it into the manufacturer for service. This is the one area where you could cause some damage by forcing the issue."

So, let's respect the Copper Hill folks for pointing out, even while trying to shill a system, that it's hardly risk-free. In fact, what they describe in these fine snippits sounds, to me, a lot like a "dangerous chore."

You also question what the AA filter is made of. Well I find it interesting that you don’t own the D600 and got rid of it cause your “business partnership” standards had not been met yet you keep spending all this time disputing what is common practice amongst professionals and want to question technical qualities of the AA filter.

You misread me, "NikonFan99." I'm not spending all of this time disputing "common practices." I'm spending all this time disputing the idea that you know what common practices are.

Nikon warranty also does not approve damage caused by a sigma, tokina, tamron lens, off brand flash, transmitter or any other accessory yet people purchase and use these parts.

They do. But the fact that people try things does not mean that those tries are successful or useful. That some people insist on using off-brand flashes or off-brand lenses doesn't mean that those products perform well.

I guess we should question what kind of capacitor is inside a phottix flash and without knowing that, we should say everyone that uses the flash is not as smart as us since they can’t list the part.

I know you're being sarcastic, but you picked a bad example for that: it is probably a good idea to wonder whether a flash whose sync voltage you can't identify will fry your camera. Facts like this can help. If that makes me sound like a smarty-pants, so be it: I'll be the one shooting without a fried sync circuit.

What metal a tamron lens mount is made of vs Nikon? Nikon said not to use a tamron lens.

They said "use only genuine Nikon accessories."

Camera stores sell products made by photographic solutions and in fact they use such parts to service cameras in the store. They are not Nikon techs but sales people that are trained how to clean a sensor in the store. Like calumet offers sensor cleaning service while you wait and they sell the same product in the store. Nothing magical or special. It is amazingly right on the shelf along with a photo of a dirty sensor and tells you what products to buy to clean your sensor. They must be going broke from all the scratched AA filter services they do right?

Again, I hear your point of view, but you picked a bad example. Just looking up my local Calumet on Yelp, the profile is full of complaints about lousy sensor cleaning service. In fact, the profile might be 50% sensor-cleaning complaints. They have a serious problem going on, there.

The fact that visible dust, copper hill images and photographic solutions sell these products and people use them everyday with great results (if they follow the directions) means that your line of questioning of the AA filter and what is safe is kind of like trying to say you know something that these companies don’t and know what is safe or not.

No, it's like me wondering how their product can be safe when Nikon says that what they're proposing shouldn't be done under any circumstance. It's not me saying I'm smarter than anyone; it's me seeing a big, obvious, direct contradiction and wondering how to judge who's right.

Ultimately, I'm concluding that the camera manufacturer knows more than the people who make unauthorized accessories, because the camera manufacturer has access to facts that the unauthorized accessory maker does not.

They tested these products and sell them successfully because they work when used correctly. So you seem to think that a company will warranty replacing people’s sensors at $700 a pop knowing that the product is DANGEROUS?

I'm not assuming anything. I have no idea how they run their business.

(In this little conversation of ours, you're the one rolling with an interesting track record of assumptions. My favorite was the one in which I couldn't possibly own Nikon gear because I once described active Nikon forum threads in a m4/3 thread post. That was killer.)

If you are a walk the straight line kind of guy that is okay. If you want to quote the manual that is okay. I don’t know it all that is why I did the research and spoke with Nicholas at copper hill images and used the product that he has been selling and people have been using safely since 2002.

So did you ask Nicholas any of my questions? And if not, why not? I mean, wouldn't that have been a good way to know what Mr. Nicholas really knows about this stuff? It's simple: "Mr. Nicholas, how do you know Eclipse won't damage my sensor filter coating, especially after the introduction and then discontinuation of E2. Explain that, would you?"

Want to learn something useful? Ask around why Eclipse introduced E2 in the first place. Ask whether Eclipse is capable of dissolving a Tin Oxide coating. Ask whether your sensor's filter employs such a coating, and whether it's on the facing side you'd swab.

(Hint: the answers matter.)

Before the days of these systems, people successfully used spatulas and pec pads to clean the sensor. It has been going on since the first digital cameras came out. You can question the design of a AA filter and that is fine but thinking that a product that is designed specifically for this task and is guaranteed for this task is not safe is not based on any factual information on your part

Sorry, not to interrupt, but I'm the one who's been reading the Photographic Solutions data sheet on the product. I'm the one who's been keeping track of what they guarantee, what they don't. I'm the one who's aware of variation and change in the various metal oxide sensor filter coatings used over the years, aware of Eclipse's issues with tin oxide, aware of E2, aware of how Photographic Solutions warrants its use and how they don't.

That seems like "factual information" to me. And it bolsters the Nikon "under no circumstance" position.

but rather twisting a warranty statement to be your reason for saying that others don’t know what they are talking about.

Well, you don't know what you're talking about. And "Under no circumstances" isn't a warranty statement. It's what Nikon says in the D60, D700, and D7000 manuals under "Instructions for Cleaning the Sensor." They use the same language for all three. I don't have a D600 manual on hand, but you can confirm for us whether it's the same there, too.

Nikon says don’t clean your sensor because they know that a certain group of people don’t use the proper tools or follow directions and the sensor is one of the most expensive cost to Nikon so it is natural that they want to keep people from doing it. Besides Nikon would rather get paid to clean the sensor don’t you think?

Again, I'm not assuming anything. That appears to be your game.

Is this some sort of police interrogation?

People have been cleaning their sensors for years. Yes, many of them pros, myself included.

The surface in question is perfectly tough enough. Why wouldn't it be? Why would manufacturers cover up and seal their AA filters with something so delicate that it gets damaged by routine cleaning?

Chill out!

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