Read this before you buy a Fuji X.

Started 11 months ago | Discussions thread
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Re: Jocachim... why I think you're wrong
In reply to ultimitsu, 11 months ago

ultimitsu wrote:

Marty4650 wrote:

Simply put... the cheapest MILC camera made is better than the most expensive fixed lens enthusiast compact with a small sensor. Yes, you read that correctly. A $400 Olympus EPM1 beats the pants off a Sony RX100 at half the price and with twice the versatility.

Actually your example proves the exact opposite. RX1 is over twice as versatile and thus rightfully still commands twice the money.

  • RX100 is half the weight of EPM1 + kit lens. about half the volume too.
  • RX100 has twice the resolution
  • RX100 has a twice the fps
  • Rx100's lens is 2 stops faster (f1.8 vs F3.5). 
  • RX100's inch sensor is in fact superior than epm1's 43 sensor, over stop more DR and 1 stop more colour depth
  • RX100 is only 1/3 stop behind epm3 in iso performance despite the sensor is half the size.
So, if one is not so stretched with extra 350 bucks, why would one go for the much less versatile EPM1?

Perhaps you didn't notice, but I was comparing the EPM1 to the RX100, and not to the RX1. The RX1 is in an entirely different league, being a $3,000 camera. I was comparing compact low priced cameras to each other. And the RX100 is the more limited model, and does cost twice as much.

  • The EPM1 is the exact same weight as an RX100 and around the same volume.
  • The RX100 does NOT have "twice the resolution." Your math is just wrong.
  • The EPM1 has a 5 fps drive rate. The RX100 is 2.5 fps, with 10 fps in low quality mode
  • What makes you think the EPM1 cannot use an f/1.8 lens? Or even an f0.95 lens?

The problems you describe will primarily affect the last group, but only if they need those things that MILC is missing. Clearly, MILC is NOT a good choice for sports and action shooters. But DSLRS are also not a good choice for some other purposes.

Lets examine your objections:

  1. Insufficient lens options. While this is true right now for Pentax Q, Nikon 1 and Fuji X, it certainly isn't true for M4/3, Sony NEX, or Samsung NX. There are over 40 native AF lenses available for M4/3 right now, with more coming every day. And the others will eventually catch up in time. Plus these cameras can use literally THOUSANDS of legacy lenses in manual mode with cheap adapters. Can a Nikon or Canon DSLR do that? Exactly how many types of lenses do most people need?
  2. Poor value for money. On top of everything else, you seem to demand that these cameras be bargain priced. Well, it just doesn't work that way. This is a niche market with lower volumes, so costs will be relatively high. And despite this there are many people willing to pay a premium price to get the things they want, but you apparently don't want.

1, regarding lens, NEX system have very poor lenses, none is worth discussing. m43 has some good lenses but all are over priced. Nikon 85 F1.8G is the best lens in its class and only sells for 499, while oly 75 F1.8 sells for 899. As for legacy lens usage, some people like it, but most arent interested.

Why are you comparing a FF 85mm lens to a M4/3 equivalent 150mm lens? It seems to me the closest M4/3 equivalent would be the 45mm f/1.8, which sells for $100 LESS. I think you are trying too hard to make a case for FF, which is your right, but you are selectively distorting your facts to suit your case.

OK... if you insist on throwing the $900 75mm f/1.8 into the mix, then I will compare it to it's closest Nikon equivalents.... the $1200 Nikon 135mm f/2.0 or the $900 180mm f/2.8 since there is no 150mm Nikon prime lens for FF.

2, on the value for money issue. the argument OP makes (or seems to make) is that many people may not realise that mirrorless will end up become an expensive option, they are often lured into it by bargain basement body + kit pricing such as epm1 you mentioned. OP's post alerts people of this.

So you are saying that the customers are essentially stupid.

They get "lulled" into buying things without realizing how expensive they are. I give the customers a lot more credit than that. I think the folks buying the cheapest discontinued M4/3 cameras are looking for high quality small camera, and will probably never be shopping for any $1000 lenses for it. The people who buy OM-D and GH-3 cameras are well aware of lens prices, or they wouldn't be shopping for a high end camera.

Different strokes for different folks. It's good to have all these choices available to us. What you call a problem really isn't a problem at all. It is just having more options.

I think they are actually a problem. Why? because mirrorless makers are not making money and not taking over the market and they are scratching their heads and asking why.

Why is it necessary to "take over the market" to make money? Leica has a tiny market share. So does Porsche, BMW and Audi. Rolex has a miniscule share of the watch market. These are all very profitable companies.

I have yet to see any proof that MILC cameras are losing money. All we get are statements saying so by folks like you. There must be some good reason that Canon and Nikon felt the urge to create MILC cameras.

Either they woke up and realized that DSLRs have dropped from 100% of the ILC market to 80% in a relatively brief period of time, or they feel they are just investing in the future.

5 years ago when I first saw the m43 concept I said I wanted one, I think it will over take SLR. 5 years later I still use my SLRs. Why? because every time I looked M43 presents poor value for money. photography gear are not cheap so we all want more bang for the buck. M43 should do that in theory, but not so in practice.

I still own and use my DSLRs. But I have also purchased three MILC cameras in the past 5 years (an E-P1, an E-PL2 and an OM-D). You are just helping me make my point that different cameras have different purposes, and MANY people own more than one sort.

Even if you don't.

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Olympus PEN E-PL2 Olympus OM-D E-M5 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 14-42mm 1:3.5-5.6 II R +4 more
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