Is the EM5’s Miss-Stated ISO concerning to you?

Started 4 months ago | Discussions thread
texinwien
Senior MemberPosts: 1,762
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Re: Hmmm
In reply to Anders W, 4 months ago

Anders W wrote:

texinwien wrote:

Detail Man wrote:

Anders W wrote:

texinwien wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

This is worth a read:

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/4241806072/sense-and-sensitivity

Sensitivity (ISO) in digital imaging seems to be the subject of quite a lot of confusion - it's becoming common to hear talk of manufacturers 'cheating with ISO.' So we thought it made sense look at why sensitivity appears hard to pin down, why we use the definition we do and how it's actually not as complicated as it can sometimes seem.

These are also interesting articles:

RAW is not Raw

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2012/10/raw-is-not-raw.html

Why ISO Isn't ISO

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2012/09/why-iso-isnt-iso.html

I guarantee that the OP hasn't read these articles (or else failed to understand them).

I think a number of other posters in this thread would be well-served by reading them, as well. Although I was already familiar with the topic, these articles, especially the last two, were still worth reading. Well written and illustrated.

I'll answer you both here in this post.

While the OP needs every help he can get, I am not sure I agree that the the two Ctein articles would come very high on my list of recommended reading. I found them rather confusing when I read them the first time (quite a while ago) although I already knew the subject quite well. And would in all likelihood have found them even more confusing if that had not been the case.

It would be great to know what articles (that treat the subject at hand) are high on your list of recommended reading (for beginners / the relatively uninitiated). I mean this in earnest. What should our OP read if he wishes to advance his understanding of ISO as it applies to digital photography to the next level?

I suggest that the OP carefully reads and digests the following posts by Andy Westlake:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/40933688

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/40944061

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/40947308

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/40947640

Supplementary reading might include the first two sections under "Digital camera ISO speed and exposure index" in the following Wikipedia article (and the sections that follow for those who are not afraid of equations).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_speed

Thanks, I've read a number of the posts by Andy Westlake, already. I will go through to make sure I've digested them all, and I'll bookmark them for future reference, when BS topics like this pop up. In a recent, similar discussion of the E-M5 ISO (repleat with accusations of cheating, etc.) in the Pentax forum, I mostly linked to posts by Westlake to help set the misinformed straight

That is, perhaps he isn't motivated right now to learn about the topic at the most detailed level, possible. Perhaps a page full of equations and highly technical speak will turn him off. On the other hand, he obviously has a rudimentary (although flawed) understanding of what's going on. How to move him ahead a step or two if he's not motivated to read a detailed technical treatise on the subject?

Regarding the two linked articles - I wonder whether, at different points in a person's education on a complex topic, articles written at different levels (of technical jargon, precision and, yes, even absolute correctness) might be appropriate, somewhat similar to the "Young Lady's Illustrated Primer: a Propædeutic Enchiridion", which plays a prominent role in Neal Stephenson's "Diamond Age". The Primer evolves with its student, its content changing over time to match the student's changing intellectual capabilities. The primer may even contradict itself on some subjects across some span of time, as, at time A, it may 'take liberties' with technical facts in order to offer the young student important practical understanding of a subject while later, at time B, it erases the liberties taken and replaces them with correct technical information, to take into account the student's advancing intellectual capabilities.

So, when I try to put myself into the shoes of me from 10 months ago, when my understanding of the topics at hand was truly rudimentary (as I'd never had a reason to be interested in them before and had, thus, never bothered to study them), the linked articles seem to be written at a level that would have been useful to help me improve my understanding of the topics while perhaps 'taking liberties' (whether because the author consciously chose to take liberties or because his limited understanding of the subject were, themeselves, the liberties).

They are written at the right level but do a poor job at that level.

What about the following two quotes, for example, the first from the end of the article on ISO and the second from the end of the article on RAW. Do you agree with those? I certainly don't.

"So far as real photography practices go, we care a lot more about camera ISO."

I think it depends on who "we" refers to. If "we" refers to 90% (just a rough estimate, and probably too low) of people who take, will take or have taken digital photographs, the statement seems OK. As a matter of fact, I think the other 10% of people who take, will take or have taken digital photographs probably move in and out of this "we" group, to whom the statement applies. If I'm setting up a shot of a static subject carefully, and taking care to ETTR in order to get the best IQ, knowing that I'll need to spend some time to massage the RAW file to get the output to look right, I'm not in the "we". If, however, I'm firing off snaps of moving subjects quickly, and am not concerned about getting the absolute best IQ out of each shot - am even, perhaps, hoping that the JPEGs will suffice, because, while I want to capture these photos, they're not important enough for me to post-process, then I probably do fit into the "we".

Or maybe I'm still missing something. What's your take on it?

My take is that it is a vital omission not to make the distinction you now made in an article trying to explain how DxO "measured ISO" differs from camera ISO. Wouldn't you agree?

I think it's a self-selecting 'we'. If you don't know the difference, you're a part of the 'we'.

If you do know the difference, you know that you're only a part of the 'we' when you're trying to get well-exposed JPEGs straight OOC, but not when you're trying to squeeze maximum IQ out of the sensor / the RAW files.

So I'm not sure it's vital to make the explicit distinction.

"To sum up: Different cameras' RAW files cannot always be interpreted the same way, regardless of the RAW converter one uses, even if the cameras have identical sensors. RAW rendering isn't just determined by the black point and the white point of the sensor, it's also determined by the exposure point, and that is different for different ISO decisions. When cameras have different ISO or exposure points, then it's impossible for their RAW files to be rendered with the same characteristic curve and exposure. Just as different films are predisposed to different "looks," so are different cameras' RAW files."

The statement is confusing, but I think it's mostly poorly worded, and may, despite inaccuracies, still be capable of transmitting some truth to those with a certain level of understanding of the topic at hand. The problem I see with the statement is that, in order to make it 100% precise and unambiguous, one may need to write it in a way that also makes it difficult for the layperson to understand.

Screw the layperson, right? I actually tried editing the above statement, but to make it pass rigorous scrutiny, it would have to be much longer and contain a number of parentheticals. Either that, or my English skills aren't that great, certainly a possibility

So let me try to rephrase it so that it becomes shorter as well as more correct: RAW is RAW and can be interpreted in the same way from cameras having identical sensors. RAW rendering is just determined by the black point and the white point of the sensor and how the manufacturer chooses to set the "exposure point" is immaterial for the purpose of interpreting or using the data. You need to know that point only for the purpose of making intelligent use of the information provided by the camera's metering system.

While your new statement is certainly correct, it hasn't offered the 'we' in question any 'helpful' information on the topic at hand, really. It's not the point the author was trying (ham-handedly) to make, which point I think is reasonably clear to 'not-we', if 'not-we' takes the context into account, and which point may be reasonably clear to 'we', if 'we' followed the rest of the article (repleat with its inaccuracies, incompletions, elementary treatment of the subject and illustrative graphics).

I must say that I concur. Read the "Why RAW is not RAW" page recently, and read the "Why ISO Isn't ISO" the other day. Here is my honest critique about the former (RAW) paper:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50638688

After reading the latter (ISO) paper, it's clear that this person themself fails to grasp what they are even writing about, and thus fails to provide much of any useful information on either subject - and really ought to figure out the subjects that they blabber about before wasting people's time. The veracity of many of these "photo-blog" web-sites is really appallingly lame.

Such half-baked writings do a dis-service to the public, by misguiding people who read them.

See above. I certainly wouldn't argue that the articles are precisely correct, or anywhere near complete.

But I think the vast majority of readers would probably fail to read to the end any articles on the covered subjects that were both precisely correct and complete, or close to it.

I think the question is, in some respects, a pedagogical one. I can't answer a completely lay-person's question about a complex topic with a doctoral dissertation written by someone who's studied the topic for 16 years at various universities.

Dunno, what's your take?

Again, my take is not that I question the need for a pedagogical treatment of the subject that people without a whole of lot of scientific training of the relevant kind can digest. I merely think that Ctein does not do a very good job within the limits such a treatment imposes.

Ok. Trying to put myself in the shoes of someone with a very rudimentary understanding of the subjects at hand (rather than an elementary understanding of the subjects at hand, which I think I posess ), they seem to be written at a level that would be easily understandable (lack of technical jargon, inclusion of illustrative graphics). They're neither perfectly accurate nor complete, and the beginner is likely to come away with some new misunderstandings along with his new understandings, but I don't think that's always a negative outcome.

Furthermore, I'd like to make it clear that I don't get the feeling that Ctein is knowingly taking liberties as part of a pedalogical strategy when writing these articles. Rather, I think it's a case of "dumb luck", if it is, indeed, to be considered lucky at all.

tex

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