If People want a Pentax FF so bad.. Go buy a 645d ??

Started Feb 9, 2013 | Discussions thread
Veteran MemberPosts: 7,941Gear list
Re: Misconceptions
In reply to Dave, Feb 10, 2013

Dave wrote:

Hi Moving Comfort,

Dave, you typed all the below on a cell phone?   Hat's off, I go about three lines on my cell and then wrap it up.  


This response will be general rather than specific in nature due to some of what I explain below. I won't respond with a point by point rebuttal or commentary partly due to time constraints that I'm a few hours away from a major shoot in the morning. There is both agreement and disagreement with some of what you wrote....and we'll have to chalk it up to "agree to disagree" on those points which I don't agree with some of your assements such as whether the D800 requires more careful handling with regards to stability, chosen f-stops, lens choice etc. It all depends on so many factors, including both the kind of output utilizing the file and if to print, how large.

I have a major caveat that I should have included - it requires no extra care or lenses if you print or display at the same sizes as before.  If you bought it to print larger than ever before, then you will want to up your peripheral influences.  But then again, if you printed larger with your lower-res camera using these increased lens/techniques, lack of resolution would interfere anyway - the D800 simply has more raw material to start with, and that pays off even if the best lenses or techniques are not used.


As I said, I know the argument about this concept being put forth that it's a falacy that the D800 requires extra special handling say to a D600 or even a D700, but in the pro arena, many would disagree, based on extensive use with the D800 (myself included) compared to many other systems and bodies employed, utilizing their years of experience with such equipment.

I'd wager a good deal of money that if you printed one of your D700 shots, and the same exact shot taken with a D800 at the same sizes - any sizes, using the exact same shooting techniques and lenses, the D800 shot would show noticeable more detail and dynamic range.  I've done that quite a bit, I currently have both bodies.  (The D600 is going to show much less of a delta, though.)


>> .. Yes, the D800 is more of a versitile camera than the 645D but I believe the D600 allows a wider variety of lenses to be employed successfully in terms of maximizing image quality under a wider range of camera settings and also affords a wider latitude in the way it's handled.


This is where I strongly disagree.  There's just not enough of a resolution difference between 24 and 36MP to make that physically possible.  The blur units introduced by handshake (or whatever cause) are so very close that any difference in technique isn't going to make a noticeable difference between the two.  I've also never seen any demonstration that this is the case - that 24MP is 'just right' but 36 mp is 'just too much'...  probably because it would be extremely hard to come up with a demonstration like that.  


There are some other advantages to using the D600 over the D800 and putting aside money, it is a better tool for a wider range of general use photographers than the D800 in my opinion. Notice I didn't say it's a better camera than the D800...just a better choice for those that intend to shoot almost anything that strikes their fancy and them some.

I agree, but I think that's entirely because of cost (and perhaps, size.)  The D800 is in every way a superset of the D600 - it does everything the D600 does, and more.  In the cases where the 'more' is simply overkill, you have your folks that are better off with the D600.


One thing I have learned after being a member of DP review since 1999 and has taught me...is a there is always a lengthy back and forth to a disagreement which, never really ever gets resolved and eventually just consumes time and bandwith without accomplishing little or anything. Thats unfortunate and that is generally how it works on Dpreview but far less often on other more serious photo sites as well as in personal face to face discussions among serious users of this and similar equipment.

Agree, well said.


In fact I've known some long time Dpreview posters who when making the move to some serious focums, don't last long with their unflexable arguments or their unwillingness to acccept the experience of others who just might know more in certain areas.

Like Fred Miranda?    Anyway, I initially responded because your reply seemed inflexible and seemed to perpetuate a certain myth that's been floating around dpreview for a time.  My problem is that I have both a D800 and D700, shoot the same lenses on them, and have a lot of direct experience that contradicts that particular meme...  So I often take up the cause when I see it.  


... When I did one of these shoots with the D600 and D800 (very low light, extremely fast moving/ ever cahnging intensity and color temps of artifical lighting), I can tell you using the same techniques, the D600 actually had considerable increase in usuable files for this specific type of use, that the D800 (more than one body of each was employed). Again you knwo my feelings on the superb D800...but sometimes a lesser body due to a number the issues I outlined, actually was preferable.

There's no physical reason why this would be, though, unless you had D800's with faulty AF modules - which is a strong possibility, many folks have had them from certain batches.

Barring that, I suppose there could be these two use-cases:  You utilized the outer AF points on the D800 more, which can be less accurate (the D600 doesn't even have these outer points.)  This gave the impression that the D600 gave you more 'keepers', but in fact you weren't really using them the same...  Or, you were looking at the files at 100% and judging from that - which automatically puts any higher-res camera at a disadvantage.


As to where individuals have tested and found certain good-excellent lenses that performed superbly on say the D3/D3s/D4/D600 but not at the same level as the D800....go to some of the more professional forums (there are many and easy to find) and you will both hear of and see examples of this. The Nikon 14-24 as just one example, a world class lens, sometimes has corner performance issues with the D800 thats not encountered on the other bodies. In this case, pixel density amoung other factors is but one of the reasons. There are both similar and other types of examples.

I think I peruse them all, and in many cases we're seeing outer-AF point issues, or 100% magnification issues.  In some cases the D800 image is being printed or displayed larger than the lower-res image, and the photographer is making a judgement from that - not realizing that they're judging on a non-level playing field when they do that.  (I will say that I've yet to see any demonstration of a D600 being able to do something that a D800 cannot, though.)


Again I very much appreciate your perspective and for those areas that we see agree, I welcome that and for those areas that we disagree or see things differently, we'll just have to disagree, hopefully on friendly and respectful terms. Thanks!


Thanks Dave, appreciate you taking the time to respond and the way you responded.


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