Poll: Is intelligent/ programmable Auto ISO an important feature for future FW updates?

Started Jan 31, 2013 | Discussions thread
NumberOne
Senior MemberPosts: 1,485Gear list
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Re: NO I can live with it
In reply to BurpeesAreHard, Feb 5, 2013

BurpeesAreHard wrote:

NumberOne wrote:

BurpeesAreHard wrote:

NumberOne wrote:

mngsmt wrote:

BurpeesAreHard wrote:

mngsmt wrote:

57even wrote:

Personally I would rather have EV comp in manual mode, then if you want to shoot auto ISO you just set shutter speed and aperture and use EV comp to adjust the exposure from the baseline.

Yes, fully agree, thank you very much

I can't comprehend why people keep floating this half baked idea. In the absence of a solution for the light meter problem, this suggestion is useless. Here's the problem:

On page 5 of your X-E1 manual it labels a little scale in your display as number 25 - the Exposure compensation/exposure indicator. That little scale can only perform one of these two functions at a time. It can't do both simultaneously. Do you want to shoot manually (with the exception of ISO) with no assist from your light meter, or do you want to have to live with no visual indicator of the EC dial when you're using the viewfinder? Or what?

I'll try to clear that up for you Burpees:

When you set the shutter speed and the aperture manually and let the camera choose the ISO to adjust the exposure, then you are not using a manual mode but an automated mode.

In this mode the display you are referring to will therefore show the exposure compensation, not the exposure aberration, as the camera already chose what it thinks is the correct exposure.

Now, it's semantics...

To nail the correct exposure you (or the camera) need to set 3 parameters - Aperture, Shutter Speed and ISO.

1) In Manual Mode (Without Auto-ISO) you set the 3 parameters; one can perfectly go without "Exposure Compensation", i.e., just compensate with whatever you choose - Aperture or Shutter Speed or ISO. Quite simple, isn't it?

In this mode, the camera switches the Exposure compensation/exposure indiicator scale over to the task of 'exposure indicator'. This indicator integrates the light meter reading with your manual settings and lets you know how over- or under-exposed your exposure might turn out to be. In manual mode this is absolutely essential.

What you are saying is just what I said about 1) Manual Mode - So really can't understand your point / question / concern...

Both you and I were simply stating how the cameras operates now. In your version, you are oblivious to the little scale I'm so concerned about. In my restatement, I emphasiszed the little scale, to your complete indifference.

What's totally oblivious now, is either:

a) My English is so poor you can't understand what I'm saying...

b) You don't know how to operate a camera (properly to its maximum possibilities)...

The "little scale" you are referring to is the «Exposure Compensation / Exposure Indicator» which tells you - in Manual Mode - if your exposure settings are "right" (scale/value=0 EV), overexposing (scale/values from 0 to +2 EV) or underexposing (-2 to 0 EV); this is the maximum range (4 EVs) that Fujifilm shows you, BTW, and I dare say, it's quite reasonable / understandable...

So if you are in Manual Mode, pick you numbers for Aperture, Shutter Speed and ISO for the pretended "right" exposure, which is usually (not always, depends on photo conditions and some other concerns...) when the "little scale" shows 0 (zero); as already said several times, if you want to compensate the Exposure, you just need to pick the "factor" you want to use (Aperture, Shutter Speed or ISO) for compensating - Therefore you don't need to have the EC feature/button available for Manual Mode! In fact, is better/welcomed if you can compensate using a different Aperture, Shutter Speed or ISO value (from your own choice)!!!

Got it, now?!

2) In Manual Mode (With Auto-ISO) you set 2, ie, Aperture + Shutter Speed, while the camera picks the (consequent) third, which is ISO. The good thing about this? You don't have to dial it by yourself! Why? Because it's "Faster & More Practical"! Got It? However we have a small problem here... How to go for "Exposure Compensation"? You can't, unless you have EC available, and so it has to be available for |Manual Mode with Auto-ISO|!

If, as you say, EC *must* be available, then the camera has to dedicate the Exposure compensation/exposure indicator scale to the task of indicating the EC dial setting. Now you're trying to take a so-called manual exposure with no light meter (technically, exposure indicator). This is absolutely unacceptable.

Again, I can't understand what you mean... EC must be available for overwriting the camera calculation of ISO for the "right" exposure in |Manual Mode with Auto-ISO|- An example:

a) You entered the values for Aperture and Shutter Speed

b) In consequence the camera calculates the ISO for the "right" exposure (0 compensation)

c) Now... If you want/need to compensate the exposure (over or under expose) the only way to do it is by dialling a compensation value in the EC facility/button; if you dial another Aperture or Shutter Speed the camera will recalculate the "right" ISO (once again) and you're back to stage one once more!

That's why EC must be available for |Manual Mode with Auto-ISO|. It will allow you to overwrite - if needed - the camera Auto-ISO calculation!

I recognize that an argument can be made for EC in Manual Mode with Auto-ISO, but you guys make it so poorly, it's a disaster. I think one of the mistakes you guys make is that you believe Auto-ISO has far more range than it actually has.

Once more, you don't know what you are talking about...

For the X-E1 (I guess the X-Pro1 works the same) you can choose Auto-ISO from:

(AUTO 400) = 200-400 ISO; (AUTO 800) = 200-800 ISO; (AUTO 1600) = 200-1600 ISO; (AUTO 3200) = 200-3200 ISO; (AUTO 6400) = 200-6400.

I don't own the camera (yet), but I have the "bad habit" to read manuals before purchase... So if you don't mind, read (look at) page 119 from the X-E1 owners manual, just to confirm...

There also seems to be an unstated, but necessary assumption behind your position that the only good Auto-ISO is the maximum sensitivity Auto-ISO. There are perfectly valid reasons for the existence of the intermediate range Auto-ISO values. Consider this counter-example:

a) You eneter values for Aperture and Shutter Speed

b) If you have an X-E1 you select Auto (400) OR if you have an X100, ISO->Auto ISO Control->ON with a value of 400, AND in either case, a base ISO of 200. So now you have a mere two stops of latitude within your Auto-ISO settings.

Nobody, myself included, talked about what Auto-ISO range you should choose for using this facility to its maximum usefulness. Of course, it doesn't make any sense to use that (limited) range within the Manual Mode facility! The smaller ranges are useful for other situations/Modes, and that's why they are there for!

c) The squeeky wheels over in the dpreview forums prevailed, so now the little scale only shows you the position of your EC dial. You now have a camera that is useful only over a two stop range. You have exposure compensation over that tiny range, but if the lighting of the scene changes so you bump your head on the top of the range or fall out the bottom of the range, you don't have any light meter (exposure indicator) to tell you what adjustment to make to Aperture or Shutter Speed.

Once more you are distorting the Auto-ISO concept and usefulness for Manual Mode, and again, nobody - myself included - stated it should be used that way!

...And if you have enough practise (and skills) regarding photography/taking pictures you actually don't need to look at the «Exposure Compensation / Exposure Indicator» to know where to (or what to) correct...

Come on people, is this so hard to understand?!

Come on Camera Manufacturers, is this so hard to implement (or comprehend)?!

...And for all those who either don't understand its usefulness or just don't want to use it - just turn the "Auto-ISO or/and EC thing" off. What's your problem?!

So again, what's so hard to understand about this matter?!

Best regards,
Pedro

It seems simple if you don't think it through.

I downloaded a manual for a Nikon D7000. It looks to me like they have a scale that is full time dedicated to exposure indicator. When an EC value is in force, the zero at the center of the scale blinks. You can hit a button that will momentarily put up a number showing the EC value. (If I'm reading the manual correctly - p. 107). For all I know, Nikon may have a patent on this approach.

You're right though. There's no way Fuji is going to let you thoughtless ones take away my light meter. I need to stop worrying about this.

Nobody is talking about taking away the/your light meter - Quite the opposite, I'm talking about using the light-meter and the camera in all its available power and features, which are there from the beginning!

I'm sorry, but as it stands, there's only one scale and it can't perform double duty. Are you proposing that there should be two scales?

...And by the way, Nikon implementation of |Manual Mode and Auto-ISO| works almost quite this way; I'm just not sure about the EC for the same mode...

Best regards,
Pedro

Please don't take it personally, but I guess you still have to think a little more about the «Auto-ISO» problematic/subject - Pentax showed the way, Nikon reinvented it, Olympus followed and Canon, is slowly, implementing it... Wonder why?

Best regards,
Pedro

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