Where to compare dof between the 6D and 1D4?

Started 3 months ago | Discussion thread
Great Bustard
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Re: It helps if you understand what "aperture" is.
In reply to qianp2k, 3 months ago

qianp2k wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

Take a pic of a scene from the same position at 50mm f/1.8 on 1.6x and 80mm f/2.8 on FF with the same shutter speed. Display the photos at the same size. They will have the same perspective, framing, and DOF. In addition, if the sensors are equally efficient, the photos will have the same noise.

By doing so you'd have to increase ISO on FF.

All that does is increase the output brightness of a jpg and decrease the read noise a bit. In the end, as I said, if the sensors are equally efficient, the photos will have the same noise.

If you don't increase ISO but shoot at the same as on crop, FF has lower noise than crop.

ISO is simply a matter of processing.  The only effect it has on noise is less read noise at higher ISOs (e.g. ISO 1600 is less noisy than ISO 100 pushed four stops for a given scene, f-ratio, and shutter speed).

So, I repeat:  for the same scene, framing, shutter speed, and DOF, the photo will be made from the same total amount of light, regardless of system (or ISO setting), so any differences in noise will be due entirely due to differences in sensor efficiency.

For example, if we take a pic of a scene at 50mm f/1.4 1/100 ISO 400 on crop and 80mm f/2.2 1/100 ISO 1000 on FF (same perspective, framing, DOF, and shutter speed), the same total amount of light will fall on the crop sensor and FF sensor.

On the other hand, if we take a pic of a scene using 50mm f/1.4 1/100 ISO 400 with both cameras, crop the FF photo to the same framing as the photo from the crop camera, once again, the photos will be made from the same total amount of light.

In neither case does ISO have anything to do with the noise in the photo, except inasmuch as the higher ISO setting lowers the read noise (increases the efficiency) of the FF sensor.

FF has 2x sensor size of 1.6x crop and 4x sensor size of mFT, the FF advantage cannot be overcome from the same generation of crop sensors.

The FF sensor will always hold the IQ advantage so long as it is not cropping to the same framing as the cropped sensor camera, the sensor is at least as efficient, it has at least the same number of pixels, and the lens on the crop camera is not more than 1.6x as sharp as the lens on the FF camera.

But in reality you could shoot with a FF camera at the same F1.8 at the same ISO for the same FOV (or AOV), no reason to stop down to F2.8 to create the same pseudo DOF. 50mm on 1.6x is not the same as native 80mm on FF but only has the same FOV. If FF camera has sufficient amount of pixels such as 36mp D800 or future 46mp FF, so-call "extra reach" from crop format is the same as you also take with the same 50mm lens but then crop out to the same FOV to have the same IQ if the pixel density is the same between crop and FF.

Same difference. That is, if we have a FF sensor with the same pixel density as the 1.6x sensor, shoot both with the same focal length, f-ratio, and shutter speed, crop the FF photo to the framing as the 1.6x sensor, the photos wouldn't be merely Equivalent, but identical.

Agreed. That is what I mean when FF has sufficient pixel density the only IQ advantage of crop disappears.

Well, that day has not yet come.

As I said earlier crop camera's ONLY advantage (besides operation advantages) is pixel density (such as Canon 18mp sensor is equivalent to 46mp FF sensor) but that gap is narrowing such as in 36mp D800. Then FF has every advantage.

FF will still not have every advantage even given that it has the same pixel density -- it will still be a larger, heavier, and more expensive setup.

Operation advantages, but FF has more flexibility. At sideline of NFL, FF shooters don't follow APS-C/FT shooters to use the same length lenses but use longer lenses. Sure longer and bigger but generate much better photos and with more attractive shallower DOF in result.

The "attractive shallower DOF" is subjective.  In any case, sure, if you put a huge 600 / 4L IS on FF, it's gonna give you the IQ and shallow DOF advantage over a 400 / 5.6L on crop.  What's that weigh and cost again?

1D4 sport PJs with 300L/2.8 IS before now use 400L/2.8 IS II on 1DX, so what, small operation disadvantage exchanges better IQ and final result, that's only matters.

I forget -- what's the difference in size, weight, and price between the 300 / 2.8L IS and 400 / 2.8L IS?  And no, IQ and the final result are not always, or even usually, all that matters.

In any case, what kind of incompetent photographer shoots FF at 50mm f/1.8 with the intention to crop to the same framing as 50mm would give you on crop? So, while 50mm f/1.8 on FF cropped to the same framing as 50mm f/1.8 on crop will result in the same DOF, who cares? No competent photographer would ever do such a thing.

Competent photographers would never shoot from the same distance and then crop out to the same FOV (unless they run of choices of moving closer or using longer lens) on the same DOF. Why FF shooters would have to shoot at F4.0 or F3.2 instead of F2.8 under low light?

Because sometimes DOF matters more than noise.  How often "sometimes" comes up depends on the photographer.  I mean, why do I have to explain this to you?

However, framing wider and cropping does apply when the photographer is either focal length or magnification limited.

Sure. But if you invest in bigger and heavier FF bodies, prepare yourself to bigger, heavier, longer and more expensive lenses. But in other sides such as in landscape, FF has native wider angle advantage.

No, it doesn't.

24mm is 24mm w/o multiplying by a crop format. 50mm is a 50mm "standard" lens not a 80mm-eq FOV lens on 1.6x crop.

Who freakin' cares?!  I mean, seriously.  Use 24mm on FF, and 15mm on 1.6x.  For example, the landscape shooter using crop could use the outstanding Samyang 14 / 2.8, and there are any number of outstanding UWA zooms for crop, not to mention the outstanding 7-14 / 4 for mFT.

Now, for ultra shallow DOF with UWA (a love of mine), FF has no equal in smaller formats, and never will.  It's one of the reasons I shoot FF.  But who denies this?

Crop format = digital magnification = digital zooming = FF then crop out to the same FOV.

Ant it's a complete waste of money to buy a FF DSLR to do that. If you are focal length or magnification limited, use a smaller format, and save the size, weight, and money. And guess what? That's exactly what competent photographers do.

It's, but that's the bottom of the line. You see if a FF camera has sufficient amount of pixels, then FF has lots more flexibility.

If you can afford every lens and camera body made, and a crew to carry them around for you, then you have more flexibility still.  So?

You can shoot at native F1.2 to have extreme shallow of DOF or you can stop down to have the same DOF as from crop. As my sample shown before such as shooting a waterfall w/o a ND filter (or even with a regular ND filter), I can slow down or further slow down to F22 w/o obvious diffraction effect to dramatically slow down shutter that something you cannot do with crop easily.

You just seem completely incapable of understanding that not everyone has an interest in ultra shallow DOF, and they don't want the size, weight, and expense of FF for deeper DOF photography.

FF has every IQ advantage if it has sufficient pixel density.

But it doesn't have the same pixel density, and it's still larger, heavier, and more expensive.  What part of that do you not get?

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