Micro four thirds - does the crop factor apply to MFT lenses as well?

Started 5 months ago | Question thread
Serguei Palto
New MemberPosts: 22
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Re: You make the classic mistake...
In reply to Great Bustard, 5 months ago

Great Bustard wrote:

Serguei Palto wrote:

dotborg wrote:

Thomas Kachadurian wrote:

acahaya wrote:

1/200@F2 and ISO 200 with mFT equals 1/200@F4 and ISO 400 with FF, 1/100@F2 and ISO 1600 with mFT equals 1/100@F4 and ISO 3200 with FF, 1/10s@F2 and ISO 6400 with mFT equals 1/10s@F4 and ISO 12800 with FF for equally efficient sensors.

Completely wrong. 1/200 @ f2 with ISO 200 is the exact same thing on any camera. If you try to change your exposure for the format you will end up with poorly exposed photographs.

It's so sad to see people who just discovered photography in the last few years giving out misleading advice. It doesn't matter what format you use, film, digital, 4x5 or 16mm, APS-c or an tiny sensor on a powershot. The amount of light for a correct exposure doesn't change. 1/125 at f4 at ISO 400 is the same thing on any camera. Line them all up and take the same photo at the same time and they will all be identically exposed.

If you take a picture with an E-M5 at ISO 200, 25mm, F2 and 1/200s it will have the same angle of view, depth of field and noise as a picture taken with a Nikon D600 at ISO 800, 50mm, F4 and 1/200s.

You are correct only with respect to the angle of view and the depth of field. The rest is false.

The area of 35mm sensor is approximately 4 times larger than one of m43. It means that at an equal total number of pixels the 35-sensor has only one stop (factor 2, which is the square root of 4) advantage in terms of signal/noise ratio. D600 sensor has 24M pixels. Thus the "size factor" is even less than 2.

Some additional advantage (the final factor can be a bit higher than 2) of SLR cameras compared to mirrorless ones comes from the fact that the SLR-sensors are colder if the live view mode is not used.

...of missing the forest for the trees. We don't compare one pixel from a 16 MP photo to one pixel from a 24 MP photo, but 2 pixels from a 16 MP photo against 3 pixels from a 24 MP sensor, since 2 pixels of a 16 MP photo cover the same portion of the scene as 3 pixels from a 24 MP photo.

What we will find is that the same total amount of light falls on the 2 pixels from the 16 MP photo as falls on 3 pixels from the 24 MP photo, since the same total amount of light falls on the sensor for a given scene, perspective, DOF, and shutter speed, and, as the EM5 and D600 sensors have the same QE (Quantum Efficiency -- the proportion of light falling on the sensor that is recorded). This means that the photon noise (the noise from the light itself) will be the same.

Next, we have read noise (the amount of noise added by the sensor and supporting hardware). As it turns out, this is a function of the ISO setting for many sensors, including the EM5 and D600. At ISO 200 on the EM5 and ISO 800 on the D600, there is actually less read noise for 3 pixels on the D600 than 2 pixels on the EM5 (however, at higher ISOs, the situation reverses).

It's worth noting that the read noise is only significant in the portions of the photo that receive very little light -- the bulk of the photo is dominated by read noise (unless we're talking about very low light photography, or pushing up the shadows a massive amount).

Thus, the total noise for 3 pixels from the D600 at f/4 1/200 ISO 800 will have a tad less noise than 2 pixels from the EM5 at f/2 1/200 ISO 200, and thus for the photo as a whole, as well. However, at higher ISOs, the situation will reverse, and the EM5 will have a slight noise advantage for equivalent photos over the D600.

We are speaking on a signal/noise ration in an image, aren't we? The image is not created by a single, two or even by three pixels. This is trivial, isn't it? To form an image we need what is called a frequency band that is created by a huge number of pixels. The wider the band the more detailed image we can get. Different content of the image belongs to different space frequency range inside the whole band. A particular "signal" is always occupies a part of the whole spectral band or even can be located at a single frequency.  The wider the band the more noise power we have inside this band. If the noise is homogeneously distributed over the frequency range then decreasing the frequency band two times results in double decreasing of the noise power, or we have a square root of 2 the decrease in its average spectral amplitude (the decrease of noise power by 2 results in increase of signal/noise by a factor of sqrt(2) for a single-frequency signal). And this is just a law for any physical system.  So it remains valid for both photonic noise and dark noise if the last is characterized by a homogeneous spectral distribution.

The lower frequency band results in a better signal/noise ratio and higher dynamic range. However, the payment for this is lost of fine details in the image.

What is the frequency band in the case we are speaking on?

It is defined by several basic elements.

i) The first element that has a finite frequency band is a lens. In the ideal case its highest frequency edge is defined by an inverse value of a size of the diffraction spot it provides for the plane waves of the visible light spectrum. The lowest frequency edge of the band is equal to an inverse value of the size of the whole image (limited by a sensor size). For example, a bad lens that has aberrations limited resolution can decrease a frequency band and improve a signal/noise ratio and the dynamic range.

ii) The discrete nature of a sensor results in a periodically repeated spectrum of the signal (image). For this reason so-called AA-filters are used for cutting-off just a single spectrum from the repeated series in order to escape artifacts in the image.  In an ideal case the highest spectral edge of an AA-filter is limited by an inverse value of the pixel pitch.

Thus the band width of the sensor is just the difference: (1/pixel_pitch -1/sensor_size). In the case of the pixel pitch is much less than the sensor size (that is the typical case we speak on), the sensor band width is just defined by the value 1/pixel_pitch.

The pixel pitch of m43 16M sensor is two times less than the pixel pitch of 16M 35mm sensor. Thus in this case the frequency band of the m43 sensor is two times wider for each of the two independent directions (height and width). This fact results in that the power of noise is two times higher for each of the independent directions in case of m4/3 sensor compared to 35mm sensor. The final result is that signal/noise is just 2 times (one stop) better (of course, herein we speak explicitly on the influence of the geometry of the sensor, neglecting the lens and reading circuit contributions).

iii) the electronic circuit should be capable to provide fast reading the signals from individual pixels. The faster the reading (now we are in time domain instead of the space domain) the wider frequency band of the electric circuit is necessary. The "payment" for the faster reading is, of course, an additional noise.

A bit more on the time domain. If we think on an accumulation of photons in a single pixel then to get more photons we need more time. The longer time duration means the lower frequency band.

I have pointed only some basic thins. The detailed picture is, of course, more complicate, but I hope that these my short comments will be useful for those who really wants to know a bit more on what is going on.

SP.

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