|
Re: GH3 = Mega PDR test (all ISOs, new results, D800 lost its crown, The Holy Grail is found ...
In reply to Great Bustard,
5 months ago
|
Great Bustard wrote:
Detail Man wrote:
Great Bustard wrote:
... As we all know, Equivalent photos have the same DOF and shutter speed, which also results in the same total amount of light falling on the sensor. However, the parameter of "same shutter speed" is only relevant in low light.
But, let's consider Equivalent photos (same DOF and shutter speed) nonetheless. The DR is the number of stops from the noise floor to the saturation limit. The saturation will be the same for both since the same total light will fall on the sensor for Equivalent photos, unless we are at base ISO where the larger sensor can use a lower shutter speed than the smaller sensor.
That leaves us with the noise floor. The photon noise will be the same since the total amount of light falling on the sensors is the same for Equivalent photos. Thus, the difference comes down to read noise. However, one of two things will happen as the ISO increases: either the read noise will remain the same (ISOless sensor) or the read noise will lessen (non-ISOless sensors).
So, in no case does Equivalence have any bearing on DR, except inasmuch as it denies the larger sensor camera the opportunity to take advantage of a longer shutter speed, which would put more total light on the sensor resulting in less photon noise (irrelevant for DR, however) but does deny the larger sensor the advantage of its greater saturation capacity for base ISO shooting.
GB, Bill Claff seeems to imply that his PDR specification is normalized in some manner for the camera image-sensor's "circle of confusion". I am not able to find much in the way of further information on his web-site (though I may have missed it, if such is there, I have yet to find it).
His statement (below) seems to imply to me that the data is (presumably, perhaps) normalized based on some standard Full Frame COC diameter then scaled by the image-sensor's specific crop-factor.
That would make more sense that some kind of COC diameter derived from the dimensions of a 2x2 array of photo-sites (which would be a per-pixel-level scaling for per-sensor-level results).
"My definition of Photographic Dynamic Range is a low endpoint with an SNR of 20 when adjusted for the appropriate Circle Of Confusion (COC) for the sensor."
Have you any particular thoughts or any speculations as to what may be going on here (and why) ?
I haven't looked closely into how Bill Claff measures DR. However, in terms of the visual properties of the final photo, what matters is the DR / area, not the DR / pixel. Of course DR / area and DR / pixel are equivalent if the photos are made from the same number of pixels.
Right.
The two main issues with DR are choosing the noise floor and the fact that DR does not account for photon noise (enter TR, which is measured by DxOMark).
DxOMark's Tonal Range seems more complicated than I had previously imagined. I put a fair amount of time into deciphering it from what I was able to find, and authored this post here:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50118190
... which resulted in a complete void of interest or response. Check it out (if you might).
The choice of the noise floor is arbitrary.
Since the choice affects how much said "DR" metric is influenced by Read Noise and/or Photon Shot Noise, the choice of the noise-floor does not in my estimation seem arbitrary ...
Sensorgen, for example, uses the read noise for the noise floor (sensorgen's figures are also per-pixel, as opposed to per-area -- DxOMark's "screen" measure is per-pixel, and their "print" measure is per-pixel of a normalized 8 MP file) whereas DxOMark uses the 100% NSR as the noise floor (which gives essentially the same result down to about 2 electrons -- lower read noise makes for a larger discrepancy between the two measures).
So, to recap, the big issues are:
In my opinion, DR is one of the most misunderstood metrics of camera performance.
Using a SNR of 26 dB (a linear ratio equal to 20) as Bill Claff does leads to results which are by far more influenced by Photon Shot Noise than by Read/Dark Noise. Thus, it seems to me to be much more indicative of Quantum Efficiency and Full Well Capacity than Read/Dark Noise.
However, since the test results do not seem to be compared based upon a measure of "Saturation ISO Sensitivity", but are instead based upon JPG-referenced, manufacturer-rated ISO (which may itself deviate from SOS when using REI), the test results seem (to me) to rather disassociated from Full Well Capacity (per se), and are only loosely (and somewhat unpredicatbly) related to Full Well Capacity.
For instance, the non-linear tone-curve transfer-function of the E-M5 (in "Gradation Normal" mode) has an around 4.0 EV input range above sRGB output of 118 out of 255. The E-M5's "Gradation Auto" mode increases that input range to around 5.0 EV above sRGB output of 118 out of 255.
Thus, (in the E-M5, and other cameras, that employ non-linear tone-curve transfer functions at higher input levels), how the JPG-referenced, manufacturer-rated ISO relates to the "Saturation ISO Sensitivity" (and Full Well capacity) Seems to me to not represent a consistent or a straightforward relationship.
Wouldn't you say that using higher reference noise-floors for DR metrics does indeed bring Photon Shot Noise levels into play, and using manufacturer-rated ISO Sensitivities instead of Saturation ISO Sensitivities seem to introduce uncertainties as to how to interpret such test results ?
Reference information below:
ISO SATURATION SPEED is the S value when the exposure level generates a picture with image highlights that are just below the maximum possible (saturation) camera signal value. The adequate average exposure Hm is regarded as 1/7.8 of the exposure level at the saturation point (saturation exposure), where 7.8 is the ratio of a theoretical 141% reflectance (which is assumed to give the saturation exposure with 41% additional headroom, which corresponds to 1/2 “stop” of the headroom equal to an 18% reflectance (the standard reflectance of photographic subjects).
Thus, Equation B.2 can be changed into Ssat = 78/H where Hsat is the saturation exposure in lux-s. The saturation speed only shows the saturation exposure as a result.
Suppose there are DSCs that have the same sensitivity at low-to-medium exposure levels, meaning that their tone curves at those levels are identical. If a tone curve of one of them has a deeper knee characteristic near the saturation exposure, the saturation speed of that DSC becomes lower. Thus, it is preferable to use the saturation speed to indicate the camera’s overexposure latitude.
SOS is the S value when the exposure generates a picture of “medium” output level corresponding to 0.461 times the maximum output level (digital value of 118 in an 8-bit system). Hm in Equation B.1 corresponds to the exposure that produces 0.461 times the maximum output level. The numeric 0.461 corresponds to the relative output level on the s-RGB gamma curve for the 18% standard reflectance of photographic subjects.
SOS gives an acceptable exposure because the average output level of the picture becomes “medium.” Thus, it is convenient for a camera set. However, there is no guarantee that the exposure indicated by SOS is the best. Also, it is not suitable for an image sensor, whose output characteristic is linear.
REI is the S value when the exposure generates a picture with an “adequate” output level that a camera vendor recommends arbitrarily. Accordng to this definition, it is apparent that REI can apply only to a camera set and that the exposure indicated by REI would be adequate only if the vendor’s recommendation is appropriate.
Source: Appendix B, Sensitivity and ISO Indication of an Imaging System, Hideaki Yoshida, Pages 319-321, Image Sensors and Signal Processing for Digital Still Cameras, 2006, Taylor and Francis Group, LLC. http://www.scribd.com/doc/91224062/Image-Sensors-and-Signal-Proces
| Post (hide subjects) | Posted by | When | |
|---|---|---|---|
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | 5 | ||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | 1 | ||
| 5 months ago | 1 | ||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | 1 | ||
| 5 months ago | 1 | ||
| 5 months ago | 2 | ||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | 1 | ||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | 2 | ||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | 1 | ||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | 1 | ||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | 1 | ||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | 5 | ||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | 1 | ||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | 1 | ||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago | |||
| 5 months ago |